From: Mark Hazen Subject: RE: University Graduates on Harn? I think the ideas on priests conducting education is a fair way of running things for the most part. However, what was forgotten is the non-magical parts of the Guild of Archane Lore who certainly take on apprentices and teach these sorts of things. In addition the Litigants, lexigraphers, cartographers, pilots guilds etc. all certainly have educational components. Independent historians would have to have some sort of funding. There are descriptions in Shorkyne of nobles with libraries (4-10 volumes). Personally, I long ago attached sorcerors to the households of people like the King of Tashal (one Sneezma of the Odvishe Chantry to be exact) in the function of advisor, but also I assume for some educational functions for royalty and sponsored research. Thus I would see educational/research activities to be much the same as in medievil (and present day) to be sponsored by a combination of the churches, state and guilds. The precedence of one sector over another depends on the political, religious and commercial nature of the state and research area. As a note, the shorkyne module (Harbaal) seems to indicate wide spread usage of Runic amoungst the people of Harbaal - and a high regard for this type of learning. Another campaign idea - industrial espionage between rival guilds or rival guildhalls of the same guild for new products!!!! Mark Hazen Somewhere north of the U.S.A. From: Mark Hazen Subject: Re: Peleahn Spells Well only being a low level sorceror I can only describe what happens when I form the vessel and fill it with the essense of fire to accomplish my task. But I will attempt to clarify my obviously inadequate accounting to the worthy masters of the Convocation of Peleahn. >>Name: Fenton's Fiery Sling > >If I remember correctly, most spells of this sort require another success >roll (against spell ML ususally?) to determine if the missile impacts. I.e. >one roll for casting the spell and another roll for each missle. You might >also want to make a distinction on damage between MS and CS. Perhaps >1d6+SI/2 for MS and as written for CS. The sling itself might also give off >some sort of glow or fire. Whether this is mundane or ethereal depends, I >would think, on the nature of the fire created by the spell. (I assume >mundane.) The master is quite correct in assuming that whether the firey bolts hit the target is entirely dependent upon my capability with the sling, I would hasten to add that I do not take "much" time from my studies to work on this mundane skill. I must admit that I have not noticed any glow from the sling while the spell is working which I atribute to the energy being transfered to the missile. However, at the end of the spell the excess energies have caused my sling to disintegrate rather spectacularly (a portion of the spell that I hope with greater control that I can mitigate) The thought that damage might increase on perfect formation of the vessel is interesting but I had rather put the extra energy flow into the current increase in numbers of missiles as the current ones do a satisfactory job. >>Name: Fenton's Umbrella of Smoke >I'm not sure I follow the logic in smoke shielding rain. Are we >talking mundane or ethereal smoke? I assume also that MS would make >heavy or medium rain mist or light rain. Correct? General power level >and bonus effects seem right on. The principle that I used was the natural antithecal behaviour of Odivshe and Peleahn elements where the smoke is the outward manifestation of the spell and looks more like a set of smoke rings than anything else. The casual observer hopefully would not notice too much the fact that I am not getting wet. The master has got exactly the way the umbrella works for heavy and medium rain, which i might add allows the use of the spell amongst the common people where complete protection would be suspicious. >>Name: Fenton's Pipe >Do you want a limit on volume of fuel (besides the fatigue itself)? Is the >less effecient combustion reflected somehow in the fire's nature (less >damage, shorter burning time, etc.)? I must confess to not having tried the spell on larger fires, only on campfires and then mostly to decrease smoke output from wet fuel. This is an experiment that I will have to try (oops Fenton has also used it to increase the output of coloured smoke for his fireworks show but he would not admit it unless put to the question). I personally do not think that my current vessel would control the smoke from more than fuel than that, it should also be noted that as smoke production increases/decreases I have noticed that the fire burns a bit hotter and emits more visible light. Hence the Space Heater spell was created to complement the reduction of smoke. With such small fires there has not been a problem but with larger fires the effects could be unpredicatable. >>Name: Fenton's Space Heater >Define "suitable fuel." Some guidelines on damage from enhanced fires and >some absolute limits on intensity and volume would be good, but otherwise >this is a great spell. (As I have tended to leave the subject of burns to the discretion of the DM ((we rotate DM)) I had not spent much time on damage from enhanced fires, As well RQ does not go as indepth on Fire damage as HM Thus I would suggest increasing the level of burn damage by a factor for every 50% increase in temperature) Essientially this spell only effects the form in which energy is emitted by the combustion process. There is a default amount of energy emitted from any fuel, I have heard that some masters have even been able to make water burn. Perhaps a master outthere might know the percentage for various types of fuels that normally would be converted. Personally, lampoil produces more light than heat while coal produces more heat than light. I continue in my studies and if I learn more I will pass it on. >>Name: Fenton's Filter of Magic >This really seems like Grey Magic when it starts to block other spells >indiscriminately. Perhaps if it only worked against Peleahn (or Odivshe, >but I have never been clear about Columbia's stance on the interaction >between similar convocational principles and opposing ones). I agree >completely with your note at the bottom, so just make it a multi-level >spell that Fenton learned at first level! > >Granted that it had to be made up quickly, but you need to be very specific >about its interaction with other spells as this is a critical area for game >balance and GM/PC relations. (Again I must admit to being quite adverse to rulebooks as DM if I did not like the way it was being used I would have it work funny, or not at all "You did not understand the spell being cast against you well enough, or the other caster was more powerful than you". This may be cavelier but I maintain that the sorcerors do not know everything and always have something to learn. Granted I do try to be consistant.) This spell seems to work much the same as a Veil of Nashal that some other sorcerors have, but more specific and of duration rather than one use. Unfortuanately, the spell's tuning to incoming spells seems to be quite touchy perhaps this is because I only understand Peleahn magic to any great extant - perhaps a grey mage would do a better job. (I hope this helps those who would like to use fenton's spells. The last definitely should be multiple level.) Mark Hazen Somewhere North of U.S.A. From: surman@vortex.lgs.lsu.edu (Michael A. Surman) Subject: Re:University Graduates on Harn? >Is all non-esoteric academic research and higher education on Harn/Lythia >... >Have any of you out there developed these issues? I just came to think of >it... Have you constructed skills for these areas? For a my own fantasy game I use a combination of Medieval European and Japanese institutions. Religious, magical, specialists and general academic. Most religious sects teach to some degree. Location of the temple usually dictates what is being taught. If a village has grown up around a temple then just the basic reading, writing, and arithmetic. General religion is taught but with a slant to the doctrine of the temple. My feeling is that all gods are worshiped by everyone to some degree with the priests being given the extra task of more devoted worship to their particular god. Cities teach more. Larger population, wealthier population. The different sects now cater to certain groups. Magical institutions almost always just teach to a selected clientele, those interested in magic. Specialists are those individuals that are famous for a certain skill. Usually it pertains to weapons but there are a few who have interests in other subjects. They can be considered like sages in D&D and other systems. There are gentlemen schools for teaching the finer things in life. Usually these are elite schools where the wealthy send their children if they don't use private tutors. And scattered throughout the realm are various universities. Very much similar to Medieval Europe. In a nutshell, this is my system. Mike From: Jamieson Norrish Subject: University Graduates on Harn? Magnus Lycka writes: > Is all non-esoteric academic research and higher education on > Harn/Lythia connected to Save-K'nor? I haven't seen any > universities or academic occupations described anywhere. I mean, > Europe had universities during the middle ages and a lot of schools > and higher education much earier than that. Just think of Greece or > the great library in Alexandra (in Africa, I know). I don't see why there shouldn't be the strong link between the church of Save-K'nor and education; the universities of the medieval period came into prominant existence quite late on. Previously, education would be received directly at the hands of the clergy, either to those in the church, or those wealthy enough to receive the services of a person of letters. > Coming to think of it I haven't seen anything on schools for > children either! I realise that there won't be schools for > _everyone_, but shouldn't there be some at least. I could imagine > the various churches running schools for instance! I think that it is quite plausible (given that I know next to nothing on this topic) that individual children (or children of the same family) who are from wealthy families would receive what education they got from tutors. These tutors might well be members of court, in the case of noble families, who not only teach children, but also advise the adults on matters relating to their field. > Have any of you out there developed these issues? I just came to think of > it... Have you constructed skills for these areas? Well, no. But then, I have yet to either play in or run a Harn campaign, so that is hardly surprising. Jamie From: pcrxs@valinor.giss.nasa.gov (R.B. Schmunk) Subject: Re: Peleahn Spells phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu (Paul Lehman) writes: >I've got some comments, but everything is heavily editted to save space: [comments on Mark Hazen's spells deleted] >rbs, I assume we will see these soon in the collective spell book you're >keeping, right? ;-) Real Soon Now. I'm trying to work on a) adventure module, b) HarnAide Macintosh application, c) some articles for a Harnic bestiary, d) carbon dioxide cycle in general circulation model of Mars atmosphere. Something's got to give, and unfortunately I'm getting paid for (d). Also, my home Macintosh blew a capacitor two weeks ago, putting a crimp on some things. >.sig under repair Ooh, what happened? Did you break it? rbs -- R.B. Schmunk Email: pcrxs@valinor.giss.nasa.gov Smail: NASA/Goddard Institute, 2880 Broadway, New York, NY 10025 USA Vox: 212-678-5637 From: phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu (Paul Lehman) Subject: Re: University Graduates on Harn? >Is all non-esoteric academic research and higher education on Harn/Lythia >connected to Save-K'nor? Sure seems that way. >I haven't seen any universities or academic occupations described anywhere. I've always assumed that is what the SP and Arcane Lore chanties were all about. Seems to me that the non-SP Arcan Lorists have kinda been shortchanged in Columbia publications of the last few years. In the second edition HarnWorld it mentions that there may be no more than 100 SP on Harn and most of those are in Melderyn. Presumably other, non-magic using scholars (including alchemists and astrologers) make up the rest of the arcane lorists. >The exceptions are Heraldry and Arts. These areas are administered by heralds, >thespians and harpers. There are not many cultural institutions either though. >(Just a few theatres I think (One has limelight - Aleath?)). Actually, I always thought there were rather more of these (formal entities) than would be expected. >Coming to think of it I haven't seen anything on schools for children either! >I realise that there won't be schools for _everyone_, but shouldn't there be >some at least. I could imagine the various churches running schools for >instance! I agree. My reading of terran medieval European university education gives a significant role to university students, an aspect particularly lacking in Harn/Lythia (where the master reigns supreme). Private tutors were no doubt important, but public schools (in the English sense) surely would have arisen in places like much of Melderyn, Tashal, Aleath and Dyrisa, Coranan and Shiran, and maybe Geldenheim and Golotha. They may not have been much, but the grouping together of students under one teacher, either at the instigation of the teacher or the parents/tuition payers, makes too much sense not to have occured. >In the academic field I assume there are philosophers, historians, botanists, >zoologists etc. Are they all priests? There are they? I assume there would be >people among the wealthy who would like to do these things. Are they all >priests? I tend to see Harnic life in general, and education too of course, as much less dependent upon religion than our medieval Europe. No doubt the churches run schools that reflect their ideologies, but I envision many Harnians wanting to learn (or have their kids learn) in a more secular environment. Most all schools would teach basics such as counting and simple reading and writing (making something more than an "X"). ---------- phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu .sig under repair From: phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu (Paul Lehman) Subject: Re: Curse of Hlen - playing ideas >1. Handling Varax ... >The PCs have no choice in this version either, they must do the seven >trials. But my group will be much happier if they believe that they >did this for an old scholar (even a stubborn old scholar), than for >the requirements of a module. Sounds like good old-fashioned GMing: make the players think it was all their idea. >2. Panagas background (details deleted) Truly inspired. Makes me want to ask "Who do you think shot JFK?" ;-) >3. Open questions >One question that really bothers me is : what does Panaga with all >the spirits and undead. Is there a goal behind his occupation of >Hlen ? Using the Lothrim/Panage version, I would believe that he >tries to raise a new army, now that he strongly dislikes gargun >(guess why). I agree that this is a weakness of the module. Too many villains are just depicted as constantly striving to get more and more powerful solely for the sake of more power. OK, it's not a bad motivation for bad guys, but it need not be the only one. Panaga just seems like the evil incarnation of the self help group philosophy that goes something like, "I'm getting better every day in every way." --> "I'm getting more powerful and more evil every day in every way." Blah! ---------- phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu .sig under repair From: phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu (Paul Lehman) Subject: Re: Miscellaneous Questions, etc. >1) Some time ago I asked for input on a Jmorvi Lockpicking spell. My >fellow GM and I have decided that it is appropriately CL III, and that >it will move the tumblers inside the lock to the necessary positions. >I'll post the spell next week. How does the spell know in which positons to place the tumblers? This seems rather like a Sayvora principle to me. >2) I'm not quite sure how long my herb material will be; if it seems to >large, I'd be happy to put it on sunbane. Since I'm rather busy with my >dissertation and grading midterms, it may be a few weeks until I can get >even a draft done. In the meantime, I'd welcome any contributions others >might have to a comprehensive list of Lythian herbs and their uses, which >I'd incorporate into the list with due credit. Columbia has done this up in 4 pages with a full page, beautiful color plate in (the now unavailable?) Encyclopedia Harnica 9. A good while back Robin was collecting material for an alchemy module that included herbs, but the project has been moribund for several years now as far as I know (which is not far). Beg, borrow, or steal this article. It is really quite good and makes an excellent skeleton upon which to expand. >3) Does anyone know exactly how the Gargun on the mainland got there? Did >I miss an explanation somewhere? Does anyone know if this question will be >answered in the Gargun supplement? Good question! Same for the dwarves too. I personally have a hard time imagining either species being very good sailors, and was recently talking about this with someone else. He suggested quite plausibly that the dwarves of Ivinia could have just walked across to Lythia during the winter. Now as for Harn, ... (You could always blame it on those darn godstones, but that is really deus ex machina) >4) How are people handling books and their contents? ... I'm not sure how to >work in this issue of popularity. Sounds like you have a better idea than the rest of us. >5) Has anyone else playing Harn read Pausanias' (3rd cent.) guide to Greece >(which is available in a Penguin paperback in English translation; the Loeb >edition contains some excellent site maps)? I'm thinking of using this for >some background materials/geographical features for Karejia and perhaps >the Umelrian League. What is especially striking about the work is the >sheer abundance of religious sites and temples, not only within towns but >also between them. Does anyone have similar sources they can recommend? As you are no doubt aware all kinds of terran materials can be used. Also as you no doubt know, Pausanias is rather unique for being such a good (the only?) classical "Michelin Guide." Pliny and Herodotus have some good stuff on barbarians peoples, but then any modern ethnography has equally inspiring notions for Lythia's tribal people. Le Roy Ladurie's Montaillou and Netting's Balancing on an Alp are my models for highland peeople. Beresford and Hurst's Desserted Medieval Villages provides lots of hard data on day to day life including peasant houses. Columella is the way to go for classical agriculture and rural/estate management. Medieval German archaeology started out (before WWII) publishing lots of great stuff about rural settlements that is not really available in English landscape archaeology and to a lesser extent in British historical geography, especially recently. Post WWII German medieval archaeology is dominated by urban archaeology since so much was destroyed and therefore made availble for excavation. These reports usually include great site and regional plans. The Doomsday literature is, of course, humongous, and one could always just start at one end of the Loeb or Penguin collection. Sorry to ramble so much. I just pretty much make an extra xerox everytime I see something interesting/applicable and stick it in a separate folder. ---------- phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu .sig under repair From: klaus@diku.dk Subject: The seven tests Am I the only one who has a problem with this test? It seems to me that what it mostly tests is the number of participants. Even the most clueless will get hrough, if only there are enough of them. On the other hand, even the most intelligent and knowledgable will fail if they are few. The test of air is likely to cost at least one character. The test of fire will not, if the characters choose to trust the clues over their senses. The test of metal will certainly costs one, since the only clue is that one most die. If they take the hint, one sacrificing himself while the others run, it takes incredible luck to choose the right path out of central chamber. Even if they somehow do the right thing, it is likely to cost them one or more characters. They will have to fight the iron golem (oops! wrong game) several times (again barring incredible luck), each time for several rounds. Simply taking a wrong turn on entering the test of earth will cost one or two characters. The test of water is not dangerous, since Harnmaster allows you to open swimming skill the first time you find yourself out of your depth. Would you allow characters to recover their armor in the exit chamber? The test of will (piety? resisting temptation, anyway) is very difficult to play. You have to tell the players that their characters really, REALLY believe that they will get what is offered. Depending on the motivation of the characters, it will then be bad roleplaying to resist. They will need some deep obligation to the quest to even try. If you are an "adventurer" because that is a way to get power or money, you do better by giving in than by resisting. If you were somehow forced, getting power will probably remedy that. Here you loose characters to good roleplaying. If bad roleplaying drives the GM to demand will rolls, you might loose characters to bad luck on the dice. Of course bad luck on the dice will also cost you characters in the test of iron. The answers to the riddles are obvious when you see them all together, that is obvious to a shek pvar. But the first riddle might still cost a character. I am not currently running a Harn campaign, but I think that the PC group I did have would not get through, for the simple reason that they were only five. Klaus O K From: Magnus Lycka Subject: Re: Miscellaneous Questions, etc. > > From: Harry Butler > Subject: Miscellaneous Questions, etc. > > I've been thinking about a few things for my campaign, and thought I'd > post some followups to my own postings and some new questions: [Stuff deleted] > > 3) Does anyone know exactly how the Gargun on the mainland got there? Did > I miss an explanation somewhere? Does anyone know if this question will be > answered in the Gargun supplement? Well, according to Harnview, Lothrim brought them to Harn as soldiers. The harnic scolars are slightly uncertain about if he "invented" them or brought them from another place (if I don't remember incorrectly) but I suppose we can assume that he somehow brought them from Midgaad (Middle Earth) through some kind of Barasi Point. Anyway, after his death in 120TR, they were spread over the entire island. (In Midgaad the Garun are called Orcs.) BTW, If this is correct, could one assume that there are very few Gargun on the Lythian mainland? (If I remember correctly, there is a Gargun Colony on the Harbaal map in the ISOP3 module. How did they get there? Did Lothrim ever go abroad, or have someone been stupid enough to bring them to the mainland on purpose or by mistake? (I can't imagine independent Gargun sailors.) Another thing: I haven't seen the HarnWorld 2 module. Is it just the old Harn module bundled with Lythia, or is it changed more? > > 4) How are people handling books and their contents? I work with medieval > (Latin, English, French, and German) manuscripts, and what is striking to > me is how diverse the contents of a single volume may be, either in terms > of subject matter or in terms of authors, etc. Frequently larger mss. > contain 10-20 works of varying length, usually, but not always, loosely > connected by subject. And has anyone incorporated noted Lythian authors or > works (particularly on specific topics) into their campaigns? The Shek-Pvar > in my campaign have found some books a few times, and I've supplied both > titles and authors and a rough "publishing history" (for example, a 6th cent. > TR ms. copy of a work originally written in the 2nd cent. TR), but the odds > are they should relatively frequently encounter copies of works they already > have/have seen. I'm not sure how to work in this issue of popularity. Interresting subject! I'd like to hear more about this too. There has been some discussions about manufacturing costs etc for books on the list, but nothing on authors as far as I know. There are naturally some obvius authors such as Genin, but very few described as I have heard of. This also has a certain connection to the academic sphere that I asked about a few days ago. I'd like to see more discussion of this field. > > 5) Has anyone else playing Harn read Pausanias' (3rd cent.) guide to Greece > (which is available in a Penguin paperback in English translation; the Loeb > edition contains some excellent site maps)? I'm thinking of using this for > some background materials/geographical features for Karejia and perhaps > the Umelrian League. What is especially striking about the work is the > sheer abundance of religious sites and temples, not only within towns but > also between them. Does anyone have similar sources they can recommend? Also interresting stuff. I don't mind hearing more. Robin Crossby won't reach Karejia before the turn of the century I guess... > > Harry Butler > > JML -- Name .............: Magnus Lycka, MSc, Design Engineer | All opinions Office Address ...: Saab Ericsson Space AB | expressed here S-405 15 GOTEBORG,SWEDEN | are my own. Office Phone .....: int+46 31 354229 | Fax ..............: int+46 31 359520 | Email ............: Magnus_Lycka@space.combitech.se | From: Magnus Lycka Subject: RE: University Graduates on Harn? > > From: Mark Hazen > Subject: RE: University Graduates on Harn? > > Personally, I long ago attached sorcerors to the households of people > like the King of Tashal (one Sneezma of the Odvishe Chantry to be > exact) in the function of advisor, but also I assume for some > educational functions for royalty and sponsored research. I was recently asked about this issue by my Shek-Pvar player. He wondered if work for a king etc. weren't in violation with the Shek-Pvar code, concerning using ones abilities to make a place above the Kvikir or bringing the wrath of the Kvikir opon Shek-Pvar community. I suppose this depends on what the mage does in his work, but does anyone have comments? The Shek-Pvar on royal pay-roll does use his abilities to make himself better of than the average man... JML -- Name .............: Magnus Lycka, MSc, Design Engineer | All opinions Office Address ...: Saab Ericsson Space AB | expressed here S-405 15 GOTEBORG,SWEDEN | are my own. Office Phone .....: int+46 31 354229 | Fax ..............: int+46 31 359520 | Email ............: Magnus_Lycka@space.combitech.se | From: pcrxs@valinor.giss.nasa.gov (R.B. Schmunk) Subject: Re: Miscellaneous Questions, etc. >>3) Does anyone know exactly how the Gargun on the mainland got there? Did >>I miss an explanation somewhere? Does anyone know if this question will be >>answered in the Gargun supplement? First off, my assumption is that there are not many gargun on the mainland. In going through the Shorkyne regional index, I can only recall *one* gargun site, as opposed to perhaps a couple dozen on Harn. Hence, if I was running a mainland campaign, the presence of gargun would be *very* much out of the ordinary. As for how they got there, well it's not that far from Harn to mainland, so all you need is some confused gargun stealing some poor fisherman's boat, getting caught in a high wind, and zoom, they're in Shorkyne. (This idea stolen and adapted from one provided by Mikael Hegardt.) Come to think of it, the likelihood that female gargun would be among those thus swept away would be *very* small, and this might explain the lack of sustainable gargun colonies on the mainland. In other words, mainland gargun are likely to be even *more* frustrated than their Harnic brethren. >Good question! Same for the dwarves too. I personally have a hard time >imagining either species being very good sailors, and was recently talking >about this with someone else. He suggested quite plausibly that the dwarves >of Ivinia could have just walked across to Lythia during the winter. Now as >for Harn, ... (You could always blame it on those darn godstones, but that >is really deus ex machina) Actually, I'm the one who made the ice-crossing suggestion, but it was just an thought I was tossing about in connection with an adventure idea. As far as dwarves in general, there is a bit of an internal conflict in the EH articles that needs to be resolved. The flowery description in the Kiraz article suggests that Kiraz was the first home of the Khuzdul on Kethira, but the Khuzdul article states that a city in the heart of Lythia was the first and that the other six or seven cities were founded later. (Another contradiction can be found in the described relationship of Harhakeim and Kondasgel, but I'll let that one slip for now.) Which means, did Khuzdul cross from Harn to mainland or vice versa? (I prefer the latter.) In any event, if the idea of dwarves on boats doesn't do much for you, the Kiraz article does make much of the godstone, so perhaps you'll have to live with the deus ex machina. rbs -- R.B. Schmunk Email: pcrxs@valinor.giss.nasa.gov Smail: NASA/Goddard Institute, 2880 Broadway, New York, NY 10025 USA Vox: 212-678-5637 From: Magnus Lycka Subject: Re: Miscellaneous Questions, etc. (Oops!) > > From: Harry Butler > > Subject: Miscellaneous Questions, etc. > > > > 3) Does anyone know exactly how the Gargun on the mainland got there? Did ^^^^^^^^ > > I miss an explanation somewhere? Does anyone know if this question will be > > answered in the Gargun supplement? > Well, according to Harnview, Lothrim brought them to Harn as soldiers. The > harnic scolars are slightly uncertain about if he "invented" them or brought > them from another place (if I don't remember incorrectly) but I suppose we can > assume that he somehow brought them from Midgaad (Middle Earth) through some > kind of Barasi Point. Anyway, after his death in 120TR, they were spread over > the entire island. (In Midgaad the Garun are called Orcs.) I apologize for answering the question before I read it properly. As you all realize I answered the trivial question of how the gargun reached Harn. Oh well, there are some new people on the list, maybe someone didn't know... > > BTW, If this is correct, could one assume that there are very few Gargun on > the Lythian mainland? (If I remember correctly, there is a Gargun Colony on Here I go... reasking the original question (slightly embarrassing...) > the Harbaal map in the ISOP3 module. How did they get there? Did Lothrim ever > go abroad, or have someone been stupid enough to bring them to the mainland > on purpose or by mistake? (I can't imagine independent Gargun sailors.) > > Another thing: I haven't seen the HarnWorld 2 module. Is it just the old Harn > module bundled with Lythia, or is it changed more? > > JML -- Name .............: Magnus Lycka, MSc, Design Engineer | All opinions Office Address ...: Saab Ericsson Space AB | expressed here S-405 15 GOTEBORG,SWEDEN | are my own. Office Phone .....: int+46 31 354229 | Fax ..............: int+46 31 359520 | Email ............: Magnus_Lycka@space.combitech.se | From: Harry Butler Subject: Re: Miscellaneous Questions, etc. I wrote: > >1) Some time ago I asked for input on a Jmorvi Lockpicking spell. My > >fellow GM and I have decided that it is appropriately CL III, and that > >it will move the tumblers inside the lock to the necessary positions. > >I'll post the spell next week. Paul Lehman (plehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu) replied: > How does the spell know in which positons to place the tumblers? This seems > rather like a Sayvora principle to me. > > I'm afraid that I am completely unable to see why this would be Savoryan, Paul. My reasoning is based on (1) Jmorvi involves the manipulation of metals, as well as the enhancement of their properties (that is, they are artificers); (2) locksmith is one of the Jmorvi-related crafts, at least according to the Shek-Pvar book; (3) my understanding of the internal operations of a key lock (rather than a combination lock, which *might* require some way of divining the combination, I suppose), which may be in error. The second edition stuff already does a hatchet job on the Jmorvi, and I really don't intend to yield up the "mechanician" aspect. YMMV. I wrote: > >2) I'm not quite sure how long my herb material will be; if it seems to > >large, I'd be happy to put it on sunbane. > >I'd welcome any contributions others > >might have to a comprehensive list of Lythian herbs and their uses, which > >I'd incorporate into the list with due credit. > Paul replied: > Columbia HAs done this up in 4 pages with a full page, beautiful color > plate in (the now unavailable?) Encyclopedia Harnica 9. >[stuff deleted] beg, borrow, or steal this article. It is really quite > good and makes an excellent skeleton upon which to expand. > I have the EH article, and while I'll grant it's beautiful, I find it on the whole rather useless--too many poisons/"recreational" herbs, too little sufficiently practical for me to understand why anyone would be an herbalist. I'll certainly retain their format (though not the art, since I'm no artist), but I was soliciting assistance in developing just such a list as Robin apparently abandoneded. And even if he were still at it, I've no desire to wait forever. [stuff deleted, including an excellent list of soources] I'd lThanks for the suggested readings, Paul; most of them I knew (and have used), but I don't know much about t German archaeologgical work, so I'll be sure to investigate. Maybe you could give us some starting points? My field is educational history and mmedieval Latin lit, so I could use some hints for German material (if it'ss not in the MGH or the romances, I don't know it). Harry Butler From: phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu (Paul Lehman) Subject: Re: The seven tests >From: klaus@diku.dk >Subject: The seven tests > >Am I the only one who has a problem with this test? It seems to me >that what it mostly tests is the number of participants. Even the >most clueless will get hrough, if only there are enough of them. >On the other hand, even the most intelligent and knowledgable >will fail if they are few. ... >I am not currently running a Harn campaign, but I >think that the PC group I did have would not get >through, for the simple reason that they were >only five. No, you are not the only one. I don't particuarly like tests like this to begin with since they seem so artificial to me. My old PCs would have seen through the artifice in a second, so I would've just GMed it differently and just leave out the test or use it elsewhere since it doesn't seem to have much to do with the rest of the adventure. (Yes, I know Gate of Kemdal and similar effects are unpredictable, random, etc. Deus ex machina and all that.) ---------- phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu .sig under repair From: Harry Butler Subject: Re: University Graduates on Harn? Magnus Lycka writes: Is all non-esoteric academic research and higher education on Harn/Lythia connected to Save-K'nor? I haven't seen any universities or academic occupations described anywhere. I mean, Europe had universities during the middle ages and a lot of schools and higher education much earier than that. Just think of Greece or the great library in Alexandria (in Africa, I know). Given the ostensible "real" equivalent to Harnic culture, England in the 12th century, universities would be anachronistic, as they did not come into being (formally) until right around 1200. There would, probably, be some independent masters in various subjects; they would almost certainly be in the cities. I would expect there to be people who train in reading, writing, rhetoric, and mathematics, although given the strong Harnic guild structure they might be guildmembers (e.g., physicians train physicians, litigants train litigants). There would certainly be church-based instruction, particularly in the areas dominated by Larani/Peoni, given their figuring as quasi-medieval dominant churches, although much of the instruction would be basic and aimed at understanding the liturgy and the sacred texts. This instruction would be primarily clerical and professional in its orientation, although some laypeople might be involved, particularly as a way of making money for the church. Note, however, that most people in a society like Harn's do not *need* even reading and writing. They need their craft skills, as in farming, but these almost certainly would be handled by the respective guilds or learned on the job. Probably no formal study of a subject like agriculture, I think, although natural philosophy would encompass kinds of plants and animals. Magnus further writes: The exceptions are Heraldry and Arts. These areas are administered by heralds, thespians and harpers. There are not many cultural institutions either though. (Just a few theatres I think (One has limelight - Aleath?)). I'm not sure what exactly you mean by cultural institutions. In a pre-twentieth-century world, most permanent "cultural" activities would be church/cult oriented, both in monotheistic and in polytheistic societies (recall, for example, that Greek theater arises as a religious celebration of Dionysos). Magnus goes on: Coming to think of it I haven't seen anything on schools for children either! I realise that there won't be schools for _everyone_, but shouldn't there be some at least. I could imagine the various churches running schools for instance! The churches are almost certainly the ones running many of the schools; these would include simple instructions for those intended to become members of choirs, etc. There would be independent tutors around in the areas where a need was perceived--e.g., if literacy is important in your campaign, there would be people around to teach, but they wouldn't necessarily have a "school." (Most independent masters would either be attached to households or work out of their own homes.) And Magnus continues: In the academic field I assume there are philosophers, historians, botanists, zoologists etc. Are they all priests? There are they? I assume there would be people among the wealthy who would like to do these things. Are they all priests? Many of these people, as others have observed, would probably be in the Guild of Arcane Lore. However, there would almost certainly be few (none?) who attempted to do these things professionally. Most early authors in non-professional fields such as natural science would be considered amateurs or even dilettantes today; they would largely lack any form of institutional support. I'm thinking here of classical writers like Pliny the Elder. Magnus: I could well imagine Peonians specialicing in biology and health-related subjects. Zoology, Botany, Herblore and Physician as well as more mundane things as agriculture and gardening seems likely. I doubt there would be much formal instruction in many of these areas. Intellectual Peonians might study some of them as part of their attempt to understand Peoni's operations in the world. Given Harn's tyrannical guild structure, I would expect such skills as Physician to be taught only internally. Magnus: Naturally, the priests of Save-K'nor studies a lot. But do they spread their knowledge to people who aren't priests of the church? Perhaps not. I have generally assumed that they run most of the higher education; otherwise there really doesn't seem to be a whole lot of purpose to the church. Magnus: Have any of you out there developed these issues? I just came to think of it... Have you constructed skills for these areas? I've developed these issues somewhat, pretty much along the lines outlined above (guilds teach specifics, churches teach things necessary for religion, including more general musings about Kelestia at the major centers, some independent teachers and thinkers). I've been tinkering with the idea of adding various "lore" skills to reflect knowledge of things like natural philosophy, but haven't really formalized anything yet. Harry Butler  From: Harry Butler Subject: Re: Miscellaneous Questions, etc. > From: pcrxs@valinor.giss.nasa.gov (R.B. Schmunk) > Subject: Re: Miscellaneous Questions, etc. > > >>3) Does anyone know exactly how the Gargun on the mainland got there? Did > >>I miss an explanation somewhere? Does anyone know if this question will be > >>answered in the Gargun supplement? > > First off, my assumption is that there are not many gargun on the mainland. > In going through the Shorkyne regional index, I can only recall *one* > gargun site, as opposed to perhaps a couple dozen on Harn. Hence, if I > was running a mainland campaign, the presence of gargun would be *very* > much out of the ordinary. > > As for how they got there, well it's not that far from Harn to mainland, > so all you need is some confused gargun stealing some poor fisherman's > boat, getting caught in a high wind, and zoom, they're in Shorkyne. > (This idea stolen and adapted from one provided by Mikael Hegardt.) > Come to think of it, the likelihood that female gargun would be among > those thus swept away would be *very* small, and this might explain > the lack of sustainable gargun colonies on the mainland. In other > words, mainland gargun are likely to be even *more* frustrated than > their Harnic brethren. Well, I assumed that was _barely_ within the realm of possibility, but I was unhappy with the number of coincidences and oddities involved. Not only the need to picture the gargun stealing a boat (why? I can't think of a particularly good reason, and while the gargun don't seem any too bright, I would assume they'd have to have _some_ reason. Maybe it looked good at the time?), but also the need to postulate an accompanying gargun female (and how would she come to be traveling about with these gargun males?), as you mentioned. And further, it is indeed not far from _parts_ of Harn (and parts where there are relatively few gargun, as in Melderyn, or relatively few people, as along the coast east of Azadmere) to _parts_ of Lythia (I'm away from the map at the moment, so I can't be too specific), but the place they'd land is awfully far away from the place where their colony is located. Seems awfully far-fetched; I just assume the Columbia people decided they wanted some gargun as a possible encounter on the mainland and didn't worry too much about explaining it. I suppose it's also possible that someone brought them over, either as slaves or as troops (maybe a continental ally of Lothrim--although his activities sure seem isolated to Harn), but who and when and why? And if they've been there awhile, why are there so few? Lythia has far more undeveloped territory for them to spread through; if they've been on the mainland for more than a few gargun generations there _should_ be more than one colony. Harry Butler From: phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu (Paul Lehman) Subject: RE: University Graduates on Harn? >From: Magnus Lycka >Subject: RE: University Graduates on Harn? > >> >> From: Mark Hazen >> Subject: RE: University Graduates on Harn? >> >> Personally, I long ago attached sorcerors to the households of people >> like the King of Tashal (one Sneezma of the Odvishe Chantry to be >> exact) in the function of advisor, but also I assume for some >> educational functions for royalty and sponsored research. >I was recently asked about this issue by my Shek-Pvar player. He wondered >if work for a king etc. weren't in violation with the Shek-Pvar code, >concerning using ones abilities to make a place above the Kvikir or bringing >the wrath of the Kvikir opon Shek-Pvar community. I suppose this depends on >what the mage does in his work, but does anyone have comments? The Shek-Pvar >on royal pay-roll does use his abilities to make himself better of than the >average man... I agree that it is a big contradiction in the way things have been written. Of course, the whole Council of Eleven is that way, but I guess when you make the rules you are allowed to break them. ---------- phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu .sig under repair From: Harry Butler Subject: Re: Court Wizards > From: Magnus Lycka > Subject: RE: University Graduates on Harn? > > > > > From: Mark Hazen > > Subject: RE: University Graduates on Harn? > > > > Personally, I long ago attached sorcerors to the households of people > > like the King of Tashal (one Sneezma of the Odvishe Chantry to be > > exact) in the function of advisor, but also I assume for some > > educational functions for royalty and sponsored research. > I was recently asked about this issue by my Shek-Pvar player. He wondered > if work for a king etc. weren't in violation with the Shek-Pvar code, > concerning using ones abilities to make a place above the Kvikir or bringing > the wrath of the Kvikir opon Shek-Pvar community. I suppose this depends on > what the mage does in his work, but does anyone have comments? The Shek-Pvar > on royal pay-roll does use his abilities to make himself better of than the > average man... Aren't there at least a couple kingdoms which have an official position of court wizard? I seem to recall seeing the title listed somewhere. And of course there's the ruling/advisory council in Melderyn (and probably some- thing similar in Emelrene, I would expect). This seems to be a clear inconsistency, although I suppose that in at least some cases those involved wouldn't be Shek-Pvar. As there doesn't really seem to be any formal Shek-Pvar governing body, I guess court wizards would usually be tolerated by others within the organization until/unless their activities were too visibly interventionist. Why would a king have a wizard on the staff, if not to perform magic for him? And the hints that Melderyn maintains its power by "esoteric means" are too broad to ignore. So I'd say that, as long as a Shek-Pvar didn't set out to become a "Witch-King," he'd pretty much be able to do as he wished. This may be a related inconsistency: How in the world do the Shek-Pvar support themselves and their chantries? I know the articles suggest that masters donate money (albeit irregularly), visiting Shenava rent space, and _some_ apprentices pay to get in, but this really doesn't seem to be enough income. Where do most Viran's get money, since they are supposed to be research- and lab-oriented? Where do journeymen get money (there can't be _that_ much just waiting to be found, and most I would assume have no real marketable skills or guild memberships)? Shouldn't they be spending most of their time researching? Certainly, especially in Melderyn, chantries might be worked into the feudal hierarchy, but what about elsewhere? Harry Butler From: Harry Butler Subject: Re: Miscellaneous Questions, etc. > From: Magnus Lycka > Subject: Re: Miscellaneous Questions, etc. > > From: Harry Butler > > Subject: Miscellaneous Questions, etc. > > 4) How are people handling books and their contents? > > And has anyone incorporated noted Lythian authors or > > works (particularly on specific topics) into their campaigns? > > I'm not sure how to work in this issue of popularity. > Interresting subject! I'd like to hear more about this too. There has been > some discussions about manufacturing costs etc for books on the list, but > nothing on authors as far as I know. There are naturally some obvius authors > such as Genin, but very few described as I have heard of. This also has a > certain connection to the academic sphere that I asked about a few days ago. > I'd like to see more discussion of this field. Does anyone have some authors/titles they'd be willing to share with the rest of us? I have a list I'll post in a day or two when I'm back at my own computer, but it's not very large as yet. But I think it might be worth establishing just who the leading authorities on, e.g., falconry or plants of Azeryan or architecture, are, when they wrote, etc. I'm revising the text-generation charts from Harnmaster to reflect both what I know of textual transmission in a manuscript culture and the languages of the respective churches. Presumably almost all religious texts except devotional books aimed at the laity would be written in the "temple language," at least initially; if the churches are responsible for education, a fair amount on other topics (e.g., the natural sciences) would be as well. Perhaps, at least within the Shek-Pvar, there would have developed a de facto (if not de iure) common tongue for the exchange of ideas and scholarly works (oops, I meant within the Guild of Arcane Lore); personally I'd suggest the temple language of the church of Save-knor as the most likely choice. What do others think? Harry Butler From: Mark Hazen Subject: RE: University Graduates on Harn? In my first response I said: >> >> Personally, I long ago attached sorcerors to the households of people >> like the King of Tashal (one Sneezma of the Odvishe Chantry to be >> exact) in the function of advisor, but also I assume for some >> educational functions for royalty and sponsored research. Magnus Lycka comments >I was recently asked about this issue by my Shek-Pvar player. He wondered >if work for a king etc. weren't in violation with the Shek-Pvar code, >concerning using ones abilities to make a place above the Kvikir or bringing >the wrath of the Kvikir opon Shek-Pvar community. I suppose this depends on >what the mage does in his work, but does anyone have comments? The Shek-Pvar >on royal pay-roll does use his abilities to make himself better of than the >average man... > I disagree with working for a living being putting oneself above the Kvikir everyone must have a chance to make a living. In fact, a Shek Pvar could using his/her powers make themselves much more than an advisor if they were to abuse their learning. The common public may know no more than that the sorceror is a tutor and scholar - rumour may abound as it does in Melderyn and other places but few know for sure. I interpret putting oneself above the others to be taking control, intimidation, using Savoryan skills to influence people etc. Not the obtaining of a patron for the purpose of making a living. I am also sure that many of those who do not pass their journeyman status are so employed. Mark From: Axel Schudak Subject: Re: Education on Harn (No University) > Is all non-esoteric academic research and higher education on Harn/Lythia > connected to Save-K'nor? I haven't seen any universities or academic > occupations described anywhere. I mean, Europe had universities during the > middle ages and a lot of schools and higher education much earier than that. > Just think of Greece or the great library in Alexandra (in Africa, I know). In the high middle ages there where only few universities in Europe. If I remember correctly, the first was founded in northern Italy in 13xx. (Bologna, Milano ??). In northwestern Europe, namely England, universities where unknown in 12xx. Education was very dependent of the local environment, although teachers or schools were non-existent. Thats the real world. Harn may own some clerical schools, sponsored by the rich and catering to the rich. Anything other is unlikely, with VERY few exceptions that are sponsored by noble rich devout Peonians (unlikely combination). Anything more would have a greater impact on the society. Teachers will exist for the household of nobles, perhaps even teaching Lakise and foreign languages. Things in Shorkyne may be different, they are likely to be different in Trierzon and they will be different (if not better) in more distant regions. Axel Schudak Just my opinion Axel.Schudak@informatik.uni-oldenburg.de From: Axel Schudak Subject: Winter`s Dead (summary) The following article will give an overview of "Die Toten des Winters". The module is divided in three parts : The first 20 pages are an article of Chendy, a laranian monastry in southern Kaldor. The next 14 pages are the actual adventure, called "Die Toten des Winters". (surprise) The last article (2 pages) is a short (translated) version of the law article that was included in the second edition of Chybisa. A one page handout (for copies) and a glossar are also included. I will give a summary of the first two articles. Player who want to enjoy the adventure should refrain from reading the "Die Toten des Winters" summary, also the first part may be read. Chendy The first 6 pages are the traditional article about Chendy, including history, economics, local folklore and authorities. (The local map is made in the same style as in the SoF and 100BoR module, i.e. the local map in the text is in colour, and there is no additional player map). The most important thing about the village is the administration. Chendy belongs to the church of Larani and is administrated by the Serolan of the monastry, Iblis Milaka, a relative of Earl Milaka. She was appointed to this monastry two years ago, in favour of a member of the family who tradionally hold this office, the Demilaens. The sheriff of Selionshire happens to be Jens Demilaen, a combination which is likely to produce some interesting situations. The next 7 pages are a detailed description of the monastry. The monastry includes a library and a srciptorium. The library contains several important volumes of Laranian mysticism. Page 14 - 19 include detailed information about the main characters of the monastry. There is a Harn-profile for each main character (a total of 4). Page 20 is a summary of all inhabitants of the monastry and a template for the daily routine. The article really gives you a feeling for a medieval monastry and its inhabitants. The main characters are sufficiently desribed to use them (as a GM) without further developing, but there are enough important persons who are left to the GM. You can easily use the monastry for any other "religious" adventure and transfer the whole site easily to any other laranian place (also using it as a non-larani monastry is not recommended by me). I will describe some parts of the monastry in the adventure part, although they belong to the monastry articel. The adventure part : "Winter's Dead" The adventure relies heavily upon the political situation of Kanday and cannot be transferred easily to other places. It is also restricted to the late autumn/early winter, hence the title. Page 1 & 2 give a description of the political background of Kanday. Page 3 -7 gives a (rather) linear description of the PCs actions. In short: the PCs arrive at Chendy and will be 'forced' to live in the guest house of the monastry. Two murders happen. The PCs are not forced to do investigations, but the weather prohibits travelling... Page 8 - 14 is a description of the NPCs and their intentions, including further possible developings of the scene. The story : (PCs view) On a journey in southern Kanday the PCs will make a stop in Chendy. The Inn is full, so they are invited into the monastry. Seems that the weather is going to be REAL bad the next days, so they should be happy. The only strange thing are these Man at Arms (4) and Orbaalese (4) that lurk around in the guest house, protecting 2 Knights each. The PCs wont be able to get informations about these knights. Next night a murder happens. A young Ashesa dissapears between the village and the monastry after visiting the ill wife of a peasant. The place of the murder is easily found (only light snow this night), but her body remains disappeared. The peasant is suspected and imprisoned. When another murder happens next night, the peasant is the only one who takes it as good news. Again, the body cannot be found. The next days will develope into a nightmare for the monastry, the village and anybody within, since there is a new murder each night. The PCs will likely investigate and the answer can be found between an old Agrikan prophesy, a hidden Morgathian Krypt, a secret library, the past of some old priests, a dangereous pretender, a follower of Naveh, an old Nolah, some wolf packs and these mysterious knights. (I wont spoil anything, so I will end now) PS : I really hate the font Mania is using. I'm used to Bookman for Harn stuff and think that the used font is absolutely a loss. Axel PPS : For all who asked for mail order, I will post the address of Mania Productions into the list within the next days. Perhaps someone of our native English-speakers can offer them a cheap translation. Axel.Schudak@informatik.uni-oldenburg.de From: Harry Butler Subject: Re: Winter`s Dead (summary) > From: Axel Schudak > Subject: Winter`s Dead (summary) > > The next 7 pages are a detailed description of the monastry. > The monastry includes a library and a srciptorium. The library > contains several important volumes of Laranian mysticism. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Does the article include either authors or titles for these volumes? If so, would you be willing to post them? Another question: Is the monastery dedicated to any particular Laranian saint? Or are any mentioned in the text? I'd like to add them to my church calendar if there are. Thanks for the summary, Axel, and thanks for your help. Harry Butler From: mak@ticipa.works.ti.com (Michael Kilgore) Subject: Re: Court Wizards >From: Harry Butler > >And of course there's the ruling/advisory council in Melderyn [...]. >This seems to be a clear >inconsistency, [...] Why would a king have a wizard on the >staff, if not to perform magic for him? And the hints that Melderyn >maintains its power by "esoteric means" are too broad to ignore. I expect that Melderyn in this, as in so much else, is a special case. While the particular composition and role of the king's advisory council isn't supposed to be well-known, I have taken that kingdom to be, in many respects, a great deal like a giant wizards' home (given such things as wizards (supposedly) having stepped into the background voluntarily about 1 tr). So perhaps much of what goes on there might be taken as "within the family," with different standards of conduct than what should be used toward the world at large. This is not at all to deny the validity of what else has been discussed in this thread, only to observe that Melderyn is perhaps rather treacherous ground on which to base an argument one way or another. -- Michael Kilgore Texas Instruments, Inc. (214) 917-2219 mak@works.ti.com Subject: Re: Education on Harn (No University) From: "Debbie Blake" > > Just think of Greece or the great library in Alexandra (in Africa, I know). > In the high middle ages there where only few universities in Europe. If I > remember correctly, the first was founded in northern Italy in 13xx. > (Bologna, Milano ??) There were universities in Poland/Lithuania well before then. Specific dates eluded me as well, but 1100's is my best recolection. -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Duncan Blake Dblake@hamp.hampshire.edu Looking for a pgp program for the Apple IIe..... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Subject: Re: University Graduates on Harn? From: "Debbie Blake" As to being employed by courts, where else would astrologers, etc, find employment, and what better cover for a SP than an astrology? -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Duncan Blake Dblake@hamp.hampshire.edu Looking for a pgp program for the Apple IIe..... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: lees@snoopy.asf.com (Lee Short) Subject: More Spells Here are a few spells I have, mostly Savoryan. All spell levels are those assigned by my old GM; there are some I would personally rate as either higher or lower. I have about 20 Peleahn spells online, if only I can find them. Here goes, Lee ============================== CLEANSE (Neutral-Common/Multi) Fatigue: (15-SI) * 0.5 * CL Time: (15-SI) * 2 seconds Range: Touch Duration: Permanent This spell destroys the magical residue of a single previously cast spell. The spell's duration must be over when Cleanse is cast, and the spell must be of equal or lower level than Cleanse, and of the same convocation. The neutral version of this spell effects neutral residues at full ML, and any other residues at half ML. The Savoryan version of this spell will also remove any portion of a person's aura attached to an item, thus rendering that item unreadable to Psychometry and similar enchantments. The spell is capable of removing aural residues from items which have been with a person for a maximum of SI * 2 ^ (Spell Level - 1) days. Repeated applications of the spell will not increase this limit. BONUS EFFECTS ML 41+ Cleanse also destroys its own magical residue. ML 71+ Range is ML feet ML 91+ Cleanse may destroy the magical residues of up to SI spells, provided all are within range, and all are eligible. READ RESIDUE (Neutral-Common/Multi) Fatigue: (15-SI) * 0.5 * CL Time: (15-SI) * 5 seconds Range: Touch Duration: - This spell reads information from a magical residue. The basic spell simply determines the level of the enchantment which caused the residue. This enchantment must be of equal or lower level than Read Residue, and of the same convocation. The neutral version of this spell effects neutral residues at full ML, and any other residues at half ML. BONUS EFFECTS ML 61+ The caster is given a vague idea of the enchantment's purpose (i.e., to summon fire, to protect from fire, etc.) ML 71+ Range is ML feet ML 81+ The caster can identify the enchantment which caused the residue, if he himself can cast that enchantment. ML 81+ The caster can identify the convocation of the enchantment which caused the residue, even if different than the convocation of the Read spell. ML 91+ The caster is given an idea of the enchantment's purpose (i.e., to summon fire in a ring, to summon fire in a ball, etc.) ML 96+ The caster can identify the enchantment which caused the residue, if he knows of that enchantment. COMMAND OF ILGHAZI (Sav/IV) Fatigue: (15-SI) * 2.5 Time: (15-SI) seconds Range: Touch Duration: up to 20 * SI seconds This spell subjugates the will of the victim to the will of the caster. The victim will perform a single action as directed by the caster. The subject receives a Will test (explained below) to resist the Command when the spell is cast. He also receives Aura test (against 3*Aura) to notice the enchantment. This test is made immediately if the Will test is successful, upon completion of the spell if the Will test is unsuccessful. If the enchantment is unnoticed, then the subject will not note the 'wierdness' of the act he has just performed, if the act is wierd. For example, suppose the caster Commanded the subject to smear mud on the caster's face. The subject will not note that this act was out of the ordinary, and will spend no more time thinking about this act than he will spend thinking about other everyday things (specifically, he will not spend time wondering why he did this strange thing). If the act cannot be completed within the duration of the spell, the subject will perform the act for the duration of the spell. After the spell's duration is complete, the subject might continue to perform the action if he fails to notice the enchantment and the action is not too abnormal. He will experience a brief feeling of "why am I doing this?". The subject's Will test is based on how unnatural the action is, and varies from 2*Will - 3*SI to 10*Will - 3*SI. The subject will never commit a totally unnatural act such as stabbing himself or attacking his dear friends. Sample will tests are: 2*Will - 3*SI answer seemingly innocent questions 4*Will - 3*SI 6*Will - 3*SI fail to levy taxes 8*Will - 3*SI implicate a friend in a crime 10*Will - 3*SI attack a stranger BONUS EFFECTS ML 51+ Victim tests 2*Aura to detect the spell. ML 61+ Range is ML feet. ML 71+ Victim tests 1*Aura to detect the spell. ML 91+ Victim tests Aura/2 to detect the spell. TOUCH OF ILGHAZI (Sav/VII) Fatigue: (15-SI) * 4.0 Time: (15-SI) * 2 seconds Range: Touch Duration: Indefinite This spell implants a memory in the subject's mind. The duration of the memory is at most 10*SI seconds. The memory must be of a specific event. Factual memory may not be installed directly, but may be installed indirectly by installing memory of an event establishing the fact. The event in the memory can be no further back in time than SI days. The caster must specify the exact time at which the events in the memory occurred. The subject may test 2*Aura (1*Aura with CS) to notice that his memory has been tampered with. With MS, he merely knows that his memories have been changed. With CS, he knows which memories have been changed. BONUS EFFECTS ML 61+ Range is ML feet. ML 66+ The memory be back as far as SI months. ML 91+ The memory be back as far as SI years. SHIELD OF ILGHAZI (Sav/III) Fatigue: (15-SI) * 2.0 Time: (15-SI) * 5 seconds Range: Touch Duration: ML days/SI months (MS/CS) This spell enchants a person so that certain of his memories are indetectable via most Savoryan spells. Thus, the protected memories do not count toward the person count in such spells as Mikaad's Ward. The subject must willingly submit for the spell to be effective. All knowledge which the subject gains during the SI minutes immediately following the casting of the spell is protected. If he previously knew the information, it does not gain status as protected information, unless it was magically erased from his memory. Additionally, the knowledge does not become unprotected if he re-learns the knowledge after the SI minutes has expired. BONUS EFFECTS ML 51+ The enchantment may effect up to to SI subjects. ML 61+ Range is SI yards. ML 81+ The spell may be cast on unwilling subjects. ML 91+ Duration is Indefinite. ML 101+ The spell may be cast to effect the knowledge gained in the SI minutes immediately preceding the casting of the enchantment. ILGHAZI'S DULLENING (Sav/IV) Fatigue: (15-SI) * 2.0 Time: (15-SI) * 2 seconds Range: Touch Duration: SI * 20 seconds/SI minutes (MS/CS) This spell reduces a person's sensitivity to tactile sensations. The subject's sense of Touch is reduced by 1d6. However, all physical-contant induced Shock rolls are reduced by 1d6. The basic spell may only be cast on willing subjects. If the spell is raised to ML 81+ and then cast on an unwilling victim, the victim receives a 4*Will (2*Will with CS) test to resist the enchantment and a 3*Aura (1*Aura with CS) test to notice the enchantment. BONUS EFFECTS ML 61+ Range is ML feet. ML 71+ The enchantment may effect up to to SI subjects. ML 81+ The spell may be cast on unwilling subjects. ILGHAZI'S PERCEPTION (Sav/II) Fatigue: (15-SI) * 1.0 Time: (15-SI) seconds Range: self Duration: SI minutes/SI*3 minutes (MS/CS) This spell searches a large area for the thought patterns of intelligent creatures. Only creatures of nearly human intelligence (IQ 75+) will be detected. The area of effect is a sphere of ML feet (ML*2 feet with CS) centered about the caster. The caster must have line-of-sight to a creature to detect the creature. BONUS EFFECTS ML 81+ Caster receives an estimate of degree of mental activity of the detected creatures. ML 91+ Center of the area of effect may be about a Savoryan elemental object up to ML feet away from the caster. ML 96+ Line-of-sight is no longer needed. There must exist an unobstructed path between the caster and the subject of ML feet or shorter. The caster need not specify this path, it just needs to exist. MEMORY OF ILGHAZI (Sav/IV) Fatigue: (15-SI) * 3.0 Time: (15-SI) * 4 seconds Range: self Duration: SI minutes/SI*3 minutes (MS/CS) This spell allows the caster to remember perfectly his perceptions which occur during the spell duration. BONUS EFFECTS ML 71+ Spell may be cast on another willing subject; range is touch. From: Keith Martin UGA Bookstore Computer Department Subject: Re: Miscellaneous Questions, etc./Gargun Perhaps the appearance of Gargun on the mainland is a relatively recent development. I am at work at the moment and do not have my Shorkyne module in fromt of me, but it seems like the gargish colony described there is relativley young. The sudden and/or unexplained appearance of Foulspawn on the mainland might certainly be a cause for alarm amoung the folks living there- perhaps there is an adventure idea in here somewhere. -- Keith Martin keith@moe.coe.uga.edu kbmartin@uga.cc.uga.edu --------------------------------------------- Isn't it about time you quit your lousy job? From: Keith Martin UGA Bookstore Computer Department Subject: RE: University Graduates on Harn? > >I was recently asked about this issue by my Shek-Pvar player. He wondered > >if work for a king etc. weren't in violation with the Shek-Pvar code, > >concerning using ones abilities to make a place above the Kvikir or bringing > >the wrath of the Kvikir opon Shek-Pvar community. I suppose this depends on > >what the mage does in his work, but does anyone have comments? The Shek-Pvar > >on royal pay-roll does use his abilities to make himself better of than the > >average man... > > I agree that it is a big contradiction in the way things have been written. > Of course, the whole Council of Eleven is that way, but I guess when you > make the rules you are allowed to break them. > > > ---------- > phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu > > .sig under repair Aren't Varan paid by their students? It seems that using your "powers" or knowledge to make a living, albeit a good living, is not a violation of the rules. The rule actually states that the Shek-P'var will not use his abilities to make a place for himself above normal men. (I realize I am splitting hairs here) Casting spells for money or giving sagely or magely advice seems a bit different from directly using magic to, say, take over a small shaire, or rob a moneylender, or dupe a nobleman out of his family heirlooms. I have always assumed that only the more vulgar abuses were proscribed. > > > > > -- Keith Martin keith@moe.coe.uga.edu kbmartin@uga.cc.uga.edu --------------------------------------------- Isn't it about time you quit your lousy job? From: klaus@diku.dk Subject: Re: Court Wizards Harry Butler writes: This may be a related inconsistency: How in the world do the Shek-Pvar support themselves and their chantries? I know the articles suggest that masters donate money (albeit irregularly), visiting Shenava rent space, and _some_ apprentices pay to get in, but this really doesn't seem to be enough income. Where do most Viran's get money, since they are supposed to be research- and lab-oriented? Where do journeymen get money (there can't be _that_ much just waiting to be found, and most I would assume have no real marketable skills or guild memberships)? Shouldn't they be spending most of their time researching? Certainly, especially in Melderyn, chantries might be worked into the feudal hierarchy, but what about elsewhere? A similar problem: how do you hide a chantry? One of the small towns of Harn has a chantry posing as a merchant's residence. Is that suposed to fool all the rest of town? In a town that size, everybody would know the merchant, domestic staff would gossip etc, etc. How long could you keep it secret? phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu (Paul Lehman) writes: Subject: RE: University Graduates on Harn? >> From: Mark Hazen >> Subject: RE: University Graduates on Harn? >> >> Personally, I long ago attached sorcerors to the households of people >> like the King of Tashal (one Sneezma of the Odvishe Chantry to be >> exact) in the function of advisor, but also I assume for some >> educational functions for royalty and sponsored research. >I was recently asked about this issue by my Shek-Pvar player. He >wondered if work for a king etc. weren't in violation with the >Shek-Pvar code, concerning using ones abilities to make a place above >the Kvikir or bringing the wrath of the Kvikir opon Shek-Pvar >community. I suppose this depends on >what the mage does in his work, but does anyone have comments? The >Shek-Pvar on royal pay-roll does use his abilities to make himself >better of than the average man... I agree that it is a big contradiction in the way things have been written. Of course, the whole Council of Eleven is that way, but I guess when you make the rules you are allowed to break them. The master craftsman to some extend uses his skills to make a place above the unskilled. That can not be what the shek pvar code forbids. I don't think that this is a moral issue, it is a matter of survival. Some powerful shek pvar could use their magic to tyranize the general population. That could cause a general hatred of shek pvar. Though some individual shek pvar are powerful, many have no combat magic, and the numbers are so heavily against them anyway that they certainly want to avoid an anti-magic crusade. Actually the secrecy and strict code is difficult to explain unless there has been such a crusade in the past. Or maybe some shek pvar has seen through some esoteric means what will happen if the wrath of the kvikir is awoken? Klaus O K From: Mark Hazen Subject: Re: Court Wizards >be spending most of their time researching? Certainly, especially in >Melderyn, chantries might be worked into the feudal hierarchy, but >what about elsewhere? > >Harry Butler If my memory serves me correctly there is no mention of feudal links in the descriptions of the Fyvrian and Odivshe Chantries in Melderyn. the point of Shek Pvar being able to support themselves and their research is exactly what drove me to presume that given that they are not nobility in the own right (although most Shek Pvar described in the modules seem to be nobles, this may be because the modules dwell on describingtheowners of castles) they must be able to find someone with money to employ them, as advisors or tutors or whatever. I also presume that they will be extremely hesitant to use overt magic, in fact they may not advertise their capability to do magic at all, instead acting as a sage. I made an exception to this during the Kaldoric civil war where Maldan hired sorcerors of fire to fight for his side, fireballs are very nice artillary(S) for reducing keeps. He actually found that the result was not as good as he thought and the fire sorcerors turned out to have Agrikan connections and in my world he lost to Conwan big time. However, back to the point, I expect most powerful personages will have on staff someone who is conversant with the principles of Shek Pvar as an advisor. And I presume that in any largish centre there will be a few tutors who take on students in order to put food on the table and support their habit (of research or what ever). Mark Hazen Somewhere north of the USA From: Harry Butler Subject: Re: Court Wizards > > From: Mark Hazen > Subject: Re: Court Wizards > > If my memory serves me correctly there is no mention of feudal links > in the descriptions of the Fyvrian and Odivshe Chantries in Melderyn. > the point of Shek Pvar being able to support themselves and their > research is exactly what drove me to presume that given that they are > not nobility in the own right (although most Shek Pvar described in > the modules seem to be nobles, this may be because the modules dwell > on describingtheowners of castles) they must be able to find someone > with money to employ them, as advisors or tutors or whatever. I also > presume that they will be extremely hesitant to use overt magic, in > fact they may not advertise their capability to do magic at all, > instead acting as a sage. I made an exception to this during the > Kaldoric civil war where Maldan hired sorcerors of fire to fight for > his side, fireballs are very nice artillary(S) for reducing keeps. He > actually found that the result was not as good as he thought and the > fire sorcerors turned out to have Agrikan connections and in my world > he lost to Conwan big time. However, back to the point, I expect most > powerful personages will have on staff someone who is conversant with > the principles of Shek Pvar as an advisor. And I presume that in any > largish centre there will be a few tutors who take on students in > order to put food on the table and support their habit (of research or > what ever). > I didn't mean to imply that there *is* a feudal connection for the Melderyni chantries, just that there could be if necessary. I would assume that they have to gain the land somehow, though, and just how do they do that (if all lands finally belong to the king). I'm sure some Shek-Pvar do support themselves as tutors and advisors, but how does this support chantries? And I guess I'd say that the ones who were seeking positions as _advisors_ would probably need to advertise their ability to perform magic, at least if they were of any standing less than an experienced Shenava, especially if they weren't Savoryan. (That is, how exactly would an Odivshe convince a ruler he or she is a suitable advisor?) If you spend most of your time developing your esoteric abilities, you eventually will gain collateral knowledge of crafts and lores, but I'm not completely convinced they would make you marketable. And how widespread is an acknowledgement of Pvaric philosophy as somehow important to acting in the world? I'm using most of the same solutions you propose; I guess I'm just not convinced that Shek-Pvar would make appealing staff-members without some sort of claim to esoteric powers (even if only astrological skill--if they have it--as Duncan suggests in another post). Harry Butler From: Harry Butler Subject: Re: Court Wizards > From: klaus@diku.dk > Subject: Re: Court Wizards > > A similar problem: how do you hide a chantry? One of the small towns > of Harn has a chantry posing as a merchant's residence. Is that suposed to > fool all the rest of town? In a town that size, everybody would know > the merchant, domestic staff would gossip etc, etc. How long could you > keep it secret? > I don't recall this; could you refresh my memory? There is a single Shek-Pvar in Sarkum posing as some sort of guildmember, but I can't recall any chantry. I tend to locate them outside of towns to avoid such a problem, although they still would probably have to cut a deal with the local lord. By the way, there's supposed to be a Jmorvi chantry in Gwaeryn, isn't there? But the map/mini-article on it in Araka-Kalai doesn't have it, or else I've completely missed it. Harry Butler From: Harry Butler Subject: Re: Miscellaneous Questions, etc./Gargun > From: Keith Martin UGA Bookstore Computer Department > Subject: Re: Miscellaneous Questions, etc./Gargun > > Perhaps the appearance of Gargun on the mainland is a > relatively recent development. I am at work at the moment and do > not have my Shorkyne module in fromt of me, but it seems like the > gargish colony described there is relativley young. The sudden and/or > unexplained appearance of Foulspawn on the mainland might certainly be > a cause for alarm amoung the folks living there- perhaps there is an adventure > idea in here somewhere. I didn't get the impression that the colony was too recent, since they seem to have developed commercial connections. I recall the module stating that these Gargun generally get along fairly well with the surrounding human population. How and why? This implies that the people are not alarmed, and that the appearance, if sudden, wasn't too recent, since there would need to be time to let xenophobia be (at least partially) overcome. Harry Butler From: Harry Butler Subject: Re: Court Wizards > > From: mak@ticipa.works.ti.com (Michael Kilgore) > Subject: Re: Court Wizards > > >From: Harry Butler > > > >And of course there's the ruling/advisory council in Melderyn [...]. > >This seems to be a clear > >inconsistency, [...] Why would a king have a wizard on the > >staff, if not to perform magic for him? And the hints that Melderyn > >maintains its power by "esoteric means" are too broad to ignore. > > I expect that Melderyn in this, as in so much else, is a special case. > While the particular composition and role of the king's advisory council > isn't supposed to be well-known, I have taken that kingdom to be, in many > respects, a great deal like a giant wizards' home (given such things as > wizards (supposedly) having stepped into the background voluntarily about 1 > tr). So perhaps much of what goes on there might be taken as "within the > family," with different standards of conduct than what should be used > toward the world at large. > > This is not at all to deny the validity of what else has been discussed in > this thread, only to observe that Melderyn is perhaps rather treacherous > ground on which to base an argument one way or another. > I know that the various cultural articles tend to indicate that the average Joe or Jane would think of Melderyn, if at all, as "The Wizards' Kingdom." [Except possibly in Melderyn itself (?). Could Melderyn have this fey reput- ation throughout most of Harn without the locals thinking of themselves as ruled by wizards?] I was merely observing that if governing a country using esoteric means, at least in part, constitutes a violation of the code, then Melderyn is a clear case of this violation. And I think that any sort of attitude like "we can do it because we've always done it, but none of you other younger folks can" would be all too likely to provoke at least a fair amount of internecine strife. But I'd also like to note that Melderyn is one of at least two special cases, since everything so far published about Emelrene implies it is the same way. And I suspect that if rulers know there are wizards (and they do), then they'd probably want one attached to their court, *and* they'd probably want proof of esoteric ability. Harry G. Butler