From: mak@ticipa.works.ti.com (Michael Kilgore) Subject: Re: Harn stuff >From: phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu (Paul Lehman) >Subject: Re: Harn stuff > >>[...] it is quite rare for a person to pay >>reverence to only a single diety). > >[...] Careful reading of some >of the earliest stuff (Gods of Harn, etc.) did not suggest the monotheism >that has developed, although I would only characterize it as weakly >polytheistic. Seems intolerance knows no bounds, either real or fantasy. I don't know that I'd always call it intolerance. Despite a pleasing variety of jihads, crusades, and general bashing of Those Not Like Us in the last 700 years, I'd guess that tending to stick with one god is a natural outgrowth of the feudal nature of the dominant Harnic culture. That's to say, a person usually has one principal vassalage relationship, especially towards the bottom of the heap; so it's not unreasonable to be most comfortable with the same kind of relationship with one's gods. For someone higher up, whose feudal relationships might be much less straightforward, the politics that gods with broad domains have among themselves might suggest to the politically sophisticated that picking a single patron is safer. On the other hand, with something like classic Greek or Roman polytheism, the gods formed less predatory power groups, more like clubs; and frequently one could worship competing gods without committing more than a celestially social gaffe. (It also helps to have thousands of gods with localized powers.) Of course, I don't believe that there is no one in Harn who practices intolerance for fun and profit, only that divine cliques don't always lead to it. Just another tool for making life interesting for the players. -- Michael Kilgore Texas Instruments, Inc. (214) 917-2219 mak@works.ti.com From: Petri Heiramo Subject: Re: I'm Convinced Oops,... What have I and Magnus done? My mailbox was almost bursting from all the mail on the list! Good, and I'll some more! ;) > From: ianmc@sybase.com (Ian McCreery) > Subject: I'm Convinced < some introductory text from the letter happily deleted > > I) Non-humans: are there rules pertaining to playing non-humans (in > particularly, the elves & dwarves of Harn...) ? Harn does have both elves and dwarves, which (quite reasonably, considering human behavior ;) live quite separated from humans (the dwarven kingdom does have human "citizens" who cultivate the land while dwarves live in their underground towns). They differ from humans mostly in culture, plus they have quite good statistical benefits. It's mostly up to the GM to make the races different from human, IMO. > II) Character Devl'pmt: it sounds like this is pretty extensive (as far > as background, etc.) -- could someone give me a brief overview of how > it works? To me, this is the most interesting part of a game. First stage in the process would be deciding the race, since it has a lot of impact on your stats. Then come the stats, which divided into two categories, physical and mental, which in turn to primary and secondary stats. Primary stats are rolled 2d6+6 and secondary with 3d6. After that you roll/decide your father's occupation and thus your social status. Then you pick/roll your apprenticeship. The char is given certain open skills to start with from both the father's occupation and the apprenticeship, plus is a given a few options to open other skills. After that you calculate the skill bases (an average of three stats, depending on skill + sunsign) and multiply them with opening mastery level to get your mastery level. Once the core of the char is created, you (or your GM) supply the char with appropriate equipment and a personality you like (it's good to think about it beforehand, though it goes without saying ;-). Certain minor details have been excluded (if I missed anything major, please flame me crisp ;-) although I think it doesn't matter. > III) Combat: It hasn't been real clear -- combat sounds 'strategic', etc., > but are there still random factors involved...?? Random factors include success rolls (surprising, isn't it) and damage rolls. > Thanks for any insights... No trouble, but you'll get more from the rulebooks. Hope you get them soon. > Ian Jours, Petri From: Magnus Lycka Subject: Re: I'm Convinced > > From: ianmc@sybase.com (Ian McCreery) > Subject: I'm Convinced > > Hello All- > > You (in addition to the ongoing discussions on rec.frp...) have convinced > me to buy the Harnmaster rules and give them a look. I guess I still had > a couple of questions though, since I won't be able to pick up the product > for a few days... > > I) Non-humans: are there rules pertaining to playing non-humans (in > particularly, the elves & dwarves of Harn...) ? There are rules for producing non-human characters of course, but there is a general assuption that they are to be NPC. There are no detailed descriptions of non-human pregame (see II) etc. At least in Harnview (I think) it is said that the minds of Khuzdul (dwarves), Sindarin (elves) and Gargun (orcs) are so different from the minds of men that it would be very difficult to play them well. Another thing is that Sindarin and Khuzdul has kept away from humanity as much as they can for the last millenium. Gargun are killed as quickly as possible if they get close to human settlements, so that not a good PC choise, even though some players seem to behave in a way thet resembles the gargun way of life. (Rape, kill, eat & sleep.) > > II) Character Devl'pmt: it sounds like this is pretty extensive (as far > as background, etc.) -- could someone give me a brief overview of how > it works? To me, this is the most interesting part of a game. First, place and date (but not year) of birth and parent occupation, relation to clanhead, estrangement etc is rolled. Secondly, you go ahead to roll for physical and mental attributes etc. Thirdly, at age 14 or so, the character has do decide what to do. Run away to a town to find a job? Find an apprenticeship with the village backsmith or what ever is possible. This is primarily a matter of GM discretion. Normally, an apprenticeship of 4 - 7 years or something similar is assumed. Fourthly, it's time to see what skills you have. There are automatic skills, that everybody have, family skills that you learn from your parents and occupational skills that you got from apprenticeship etc. At last, you get 3 optional points to be used for opening other skills or increasing mastery-level. You also get some money and tools of the trade. By this time, it's usual to be a journeyman or something like that. > > III) Combat: It hasn't been real clear -- combat sounds 'strategic', etc., > but are there still random factors involved...?? Yes! Assuming that you do a melee attack on me, the following things happen. 1 You decide what weapon you use, that aspect (blunt, pointed, edged) to use and if you aim for head, arms, body or legs. 2 I decide whether to block, dodge, counterstrike, grapple or ignore. 3 Our effective masterylevels (EML) are decided. I you attack me with a battle sword and I try to block with a dagger, you will get a nice bonus for instance. 4 Both attacker and defender roll against the proper skill EML. As with all skill resolution in HM a roll under or exactly on EML (which must be between 05 and 95) is a success, and a higher roll is a failure. If the least significant digit in the roll is a 5 or 0, it is a critical success/failure, otherwise it's a moderate success/failure. The results are crossindexed on a special table (one 4*4 table for each type of defence). Let's say you got a critical success (perhaps rolled 15) and I got a marginal failure (perhaps 89) with a counter attack defence. The result is then "Attacker strike 3d6 + weapon impact". (A marginal success (perhaps 13) would have given you 2d6.) 5 Hit location is rolled (different tables depending on which zone you aimed at) and the armour value on that location against the choosen weapon aspect is subtracted from the impact of the strike. 6 If impact is still > 0, there has been damage, and you look in the injury table. Weapon aspect, hit location and impact decides what happens. From this you will see how many injury points to give the wound (1d10, 1d10+10 or 1d10+20) and what else happens. For instance a blunt hit on the knee will force me to roll a number of d6 against my agility to avoid falling to the ground, and a pointed hit in my abdomen might cause a severe bleeding to occur, and I might fall unconcious if I fail a roll of xd6 against endurance. Some hits will cause a kill roll or an amputiation roll. The sum of injury points, encumberance and fatigue act as a penalty when EMLs etc are calculated. Then there is treatment of the wound and healing of course. Depending on type and severity of the wound and how well the person trating it is doing, every wound is assessed a healing rate from 3 to 6. (Some small wound are OK at once when they are looked att if there is a crit. success on the treatment.) Every day, the player rolls 1d% against healing rate * endurance. CS = 2 ip healed, MS = 1 ip healed, MF = status quo (MF=>CF on first day), CF = infection (if open wound). Infected wounds don't heal, but any failed roll decreases healing rate, and succeeded rolls increase healing rate. hr = 0 => dead, hr = 6 => infection defeated. Infections might also spread. I suppose this sounds massively complex, but it actually works rather smothly once you get a hang of it. All the tables you need are on two A4 sheets. (Except the info that is on you character sheet.) > > Thanks for any insights... > > Ian > JML -- Name .............: Magnus Lycka, MSc, Design Engineer | All opinions Office Address ...: Saab Ericsson Space AB | expressed here S-405 15 GOTEBORG,SWEDEN | are my own. Office Phone .....: int+46 31 354229 | Fax ..............: int+46 31 359520 | Email ............: Magnus_Lycka@space.combitech.se | From: Greg Hines Subject: Desperately seeking...Harnmaster Ok guys what gives? I came back to Harn after 4 years, deciding to go whole hog this time, switching over to Harnmaster, etc. But I see some things haven't changed. The good folks at CG wonder why they don't get more market share, well having your rules system in print would be a good start| I can't belive it is out of stock for who knows how long. Are they preparing to reprint or what. I did buy BattleLust this weekend and liked what I saw, but if I am going to have to wait forever for Harnmaster...... And what will I tell my players "sorry no rulebook available". Sorry about blowing off the steam, but I am ready to buy, but no product . Is there going to be a reprint in the near (very soon?) future? Greg Hines From: pcrxs@valinor.giss.nasa.gov (R.B. Schmunk) Subject: EHindex & netspells Per recent requests, I have reposted the Encyclopedia Harnica and net spell files to the sunbane Harnic archive. The files are still Binhexed, but are *not* stuffed. Thus, you PC users should also be able to read them if you follow the instructions that were posted to the mailing list a week or so ago. Note: The macstuff subdirectory has been re-organized. MS Word files now contain an .mswd. in their names (e.g., EHindex.mswd.hqx), and MS Excel files contain an .xcel. This should make it a bit easier for you. rbs -- R.B. Schmunk Email: pcrxs@valinor.giss.nasa.gov Smail: NASA/Goddard Institute, 2880 Broadway, New York, NY 10025 USA Vox: 212-678-5637 From: Magnus Lycka Subject: Re: Desperately seeking...Harnmaster > > From: Greg Hines > Subject: Desperately seeking...Harnmaster > > Ok guys what gives? I came back to Harn after 4 years, deciding to go whole > hog this time, switching over to Harnmaster, etc. But I see some things > haven't changed. The good folks at CG wonder why they don't get more market > share, well having your rules system in print would be a good start| I can't > belive it is out of stock for who knows how long. Are they preparing to reprint > or what. I did buy BattleLust this weekend and liked what I saw, but if I > am going to have to wait forever for Harnmaster...... And what will I tell my > players "sorry no rulebook available". Sorry about blowing off the steam, but > I am ready to buy, but no product . Is there going to be a reprint in > the near (very soon?) future? > > Greg Hines > > 1. It's possible to buy a xerox copy of all harn stuff. Ok, it's not as fancy, but it does contain the same things. 2. There are gamesstores that have copies available. A few were mentioned in the harn-related discussions on rec.games.frp.misc recently. 3. Someone on the net (rec.games.frp.misc again) had a copy to sell. 4. The magic rules are in 2nd ed. (Shek-Pvar) The HarnPlayer, is a plyers guide which is to be released Sept. 93 ??? I don't know exactly what it contains though. I suppose that it doesn't cover all of HM except magic. Perhaps someone on the net knows more (Mr Frazer?). JML -- Name .............: Magnus Lycka, MSc, Design Engineer | All opinions Office Address ...: Saab Ericsson Space AB | expressed here S-405 15 GOTEBORG,SWEDEN | are my own. Office Phone .....: int+46 31 354229 | Fax ..............: int+46 31 359520 | Email ............: Magnus_Lycka@space.combitech.se | From: Greg Hara Subject: Re: Desperately seeking...Harnmaster Could somebody tell me exactly what IS out of print and what is NOT? I am trying to find the Cities of Harn, Rethem, and some other modules. Anyone know who I can contact? I am also in the Washington DC area (actually Northern Va). Is anyone playing Harn here? Thanx in advance, Greg From: phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu (Paul Lehman) Subject: Re: Harn stuff >From: mak@ticipa.works.ti.com (Michael Kilgore) >Subject: Re: Harn stuff >>[...] Careful reading of some >>of the earliest stuff (Gods of Harn, etc.) did not suggest the monotheism >>that has developed, although I would only characterize it as weakly >>polytheistic. Seems intolerance knows no bounds, either real or fantasy. > >I'd guess that tending to stick with one god is a >natural outgrowth of the feudal nature of the dominant Harnic culture. >That's to say, a person usually has one principal vassalage relationship, >especially towards the bottom of the heap; so it's not unreasonable to be >most comfortable with the same kind of relationship with one's gods. For >someone higher up, whose feudal relationships might be much less >straightforward, the politics that gods with broad domains have among >themselves might suggest to the politically sophisticated that picking a >single patron is safer. All true for Harn as written now. I would say too that intolerance, no matter how derived, is still intolerance. I am also not completely comfortable with the notion of short, dumb, and brutish peasants whose outlook is limited to their liege. This makes for good rpg if one's PCs are not peasants and makes things much simpler, and thus easier, to GM, but I don't really imagine real medieval or fantasy peasants would act that way (and especially think that way). Kethirans are said to recognize the existence of all the gods, but almost all pay attention, let alone, worship only one. In the end, though, this is something that individual GMs must decide and work out for themselves. ---------- phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu "Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life." Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41 From: klaus@diku.dk Subject: Identify this game I hope you will forgive what looks like a trivia question, but the relevance to this list should soon become clear. I will describe parts of the religion of a campaign world and game system, and I ask these questions: What is the name of this world? What is the name of the game system? What are the names of the gods mentioned? There are ten major gods. Each has his or her own priesthood. Priests advance through numbered circles, higher numbers meaning higher rank. No less than two of the ten major gods are wargods. One, who's color is red, is the patron of those who fight for clan and country, and and for the common good. The other, who is also the god of fire, is the god of destruction for the sake of destruction. His color is orange. There is also a god of wisdom, the sage of the gods. His color is grey. To advance in his church, the priest submit scholarly works called labours of reverence. In the rules there is a procedure for divine intervention. The player rolls against a table, the possible results being intervention, no effect and retribution. This shouldn't be too difficult. Note that a major clue is found in the paragraph just above this one. Klaus O K From: Magnus Lycka Subject: Re: Identify this game > > From: klaus@diku.dk > Subject: Identify this game > > I hope you will forgive what looks like a trivia question, > but the relevance to this list should soon become clear. > > I will describe parts of the religion of a campaign world > and game system, and I ask these questions: What > is the name of this world? What is the name of the game system? > What are the names of the gods mentioned? > > There are ten major gods. Each has his or her own priesthood. > Priests advance through numbered circles, higher numbers > meaning higher rank. > > No less than two of the ten major gods are wargods. One, > who's color is red, is the patron of those who fight for > clan and country, and and for the common good. The other, > who is also the god of fire, is the god of destruction > for the sake of destruction. His color is orange. > > There is also a god of wisdom, the sage of the gods. > His color is grey. To advance in his church, the priest > submit scholarly works called labours of reverence. > > In the rules there is a procedure for divine intervention. > The player rolls against a table, the possible results being > intervention, no effect and retribution. > > This shouldn't be too difficult. Note that a major clue > is found in the paragraph just above this one. > > Klaus O K > > Ok, the answer is trivial, but is there some kind of point with this quiz? -- Name .............: Magnus Lycka, MSc, Design Engineer | All opinions Office Address ...: Saab Ericsson Space AB | expressed here S-405 15 GOTEBORG,SWEDEN | are my own. Office Phone .....: int+46 31 354229 | Fax ..............: int+46 31 359520 | Email ............: Magnus_Lycka@space.combitech.se | From: e90mhg@efd.lth.se (Mikael Hegardt) Subject: Playing non-humans Just over the weekend my mailbox collected about 20 mails frin "Harn-Line". I must thank Mr Parson for all the work he puts into it!!! Anyway, Petri commented on Ian McCreery's letter concerning playing non-humans. I just thought I'd relay one of my players reaction when seeing the stats for Khuzduhl abnd Sindarin. He did NOT like the idea of Elves and Dwarves having these high stats - why is it that them being so no-evil and having so high stats they seem to die out? He felt that the idea of beefing up the dwarves and the elves is a bad habit inherited from the Lord of the Ring. MY response to this is to not play the elves and dwarves as the always-nice-to-everybody non-human, but instead giving them a more pragmatic view towards humans (and especially the PC's). Any comments ??? -----------------------------------------M-----M-I--CCC-M-----M---A----CCC--- Mikael Hegardt M M M M I C M M M M A A C Institute of Technology, Lund, Sweden M M M I C M M M AAAAA C Macapdr, E-sektionen LTH M M I CCC M M A A CCC - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - E-Mail: e90mhg@efd.lth.se Hem: 046/129637 E-sektionen,Ble Dvrren: 046-141497 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Magnus Lycka Subject: Re: Harn stuff > > From: phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu (Paul Lehman) > Subject: Re: Harn stuff > [stuff deleted] > Kethirans are said to recognize the existence of all the gods, but almost > all pay attention, let alone, worship only one. In the end, though, this is > something that individual GMs must decide and work out for themselves. > I think I've written about this before, but isn't there a some references to cases where people in one way or another call upon several gods. I you're a peaceful Melderyni farmer, Peoni is the natural choice, and there isn't much use for any other god. But if you get drafted and will go into battle, I think you might start to pray to Larani. As I remember, Lady Ygrena of Fanons Vale, is a pious Peonian who calls upon Larani in her letter to the PCs in ISOP II. I could also think that a Laranian knight might send Peoni a thought and a proper donation if his wife is going through a complicated birth, as this isn't at all Laranis field of expertise... Considering that Peoni is the godess of chaste love and fertility, I could even think that weddings are a Peonian institution even for Laranian knights... As I see it, most people in Kanday, Chybisa, Kaldor and Melderyn respect (in a positive way) Larani, Peoni and Save-K'nor. Few people have an interrest in Save-K'nor though. Siem is probably mostly associated to legends and faire-tales, but I could well consider small children praying to Siem with their mothers to give them pleasent dreams when they go to sleep. And if people say grace at meals, they can't really be directed at anyone but Peoni... Ilvir is considered a bit strange by most non-Jarinese, but is tolerated. Halea is considered sinful, especially by Peonians. Sarajin is probably associated with Orbaal, and not appreciated by many (definitely not in Thay) except by mercenaries or people would like to be mercenaries... Argik, Morgath and Naveh is of course seen as evil, but it could be very interresting to see an isolated village with people who are Peonians on the surface who covertly worship Agrik or Morgath too. That would be a bit voodoo like. (Idea for adventure?) The explanation for this would be that this worship is based on fear for something. I could for instance imagine people living near a volcano worshiping Agrik to same themselves for the killing fire and rocks, but that has no relevance on Harn of course... The closest connection between the gods are without doubt between Larani and Peoni. There are several descriptions in the scriptures of how Peoni has stopped Larani from letting her violence go to far... JML -- Name .............: Magnus Lycka, MSc, Design Engineer | All opinions Office Address ...: Saab Ericsson Space AB | expressed here S-405 15 GOTEBORG,SWEDEN | are my own. Office Phone .....: int+46 31 354229 | Fax ..............: int+46 31 359520 | Email ............: Magnus_Lycka@space.combitech.se | From: klaus@diku.dk Subject: Re: Identify this game Magnus Lycka writes: > In the rules there is a procedure for divine intervention. > The player rolls against a table, the possible results being > intervention, no effect and retribution. > > This shouldn't be too difficult. Note that a major clue > is found in the paragraph just above this one. Ok, the answer is trivial, but is there some kind of point with this quiz? Trivial, you say, but you don't give you answer. BTW, you did notice that there is no "conditions" result in that intervention table, I hope. [Ed. Note: Okay, okay Klaus. We'll bite. It sounds a lot like, hmmm, could we say... HARN? I'm sure that you have something else in mind, so let's have it. -Eric] Klaus O K From: Magnus Lycka Subject: Re: Playing non-humans > > From: e90mhg@efd.lth.se (Mikael Hegardt) > Subject: Playing non-humans > > Just over the weekend my mailbox collected about 20 mails > frin "Harn-Line". I must thank Mr Parson for all the work > he puts into it!!! > Anyway, Petri commented on Ian McCreery's letter concerning > playing non-humans. I just thought I'd relay one of my players > reaction when seeing the stats for Khuzduhl abnd Sindarin. > He did NOT like the idea of Elves and Dwarves having these high > stats - why is it that them being so no-evil and having so high > stats they seem to die out? They don't multiply the way we do. In other words: They are almost impotent. This is clear from the descriptions of the elder people. This is the obvious reason why the Sindarin renounced their sovereignty over Harn, and isolated themselves in Shava Forest. They where sure that even if they would kill many of the invading barbarians each, these wars would have been the end of them. > > He felt that the idea of beefing up the dwarves and the elves is > a bad habit inherited from the Lord of the Ring. Well, this is the way they really are ;) As I said, their small population is because of their inferiority (is that a word?) in one thing only: Copulataion! Naturally, ability to reproduce is one of the most important aspects of survival. Just look at the gargun. They are violent enough to kill each other as easily as anyone else, but the queen is very productive and they are grown up within the year. Anti-elves one might say... > > MY response to this is to not play the elves and dwarves as the > always-nice-to-everybody non-human, but instead giving them a more > pragmatic view towards humans (and especially the PC's). They are first of all RARE, so there shouldn't be much interaction between PCs and the elder races. Khuzdul are suspicious and not very social. Ever since the battle of sorrows they have hate the Sindarin for their betrayal, but they have also often despised men, considering them to be a vermin, increasing a lot in population, but unable to appreciate higher qualities. Sindarin are seldom aggresive, but very distant - almost mentally absent - and not usually interrested in people in my personal experience. I've met a Sindarin that ignored me compleately, because he was absorbed in his study of chrysalis turning into a butterfly. I think he stood there absolutely still for days. (Actually I didn't stick around to see how long he stayed.) The sindarin way of looking at man is often rather sad, observing much of the same things as the Khuzdul, but not reacting in the same way, due to their difference in temperament. > > Any comments ??? > JML > -----------------------------------------M-----M-I--CCC-M-----M---A----CCC--- > Mikael Hegardt M M M M I C M M M M A A C > Institute of Technology, Lund, Sweden M M M I C M M M AAAAA C > Macapdr, E-sektionen LTH M M I CCC M M A A CCC > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > E-Mail: e90mhg@efd.lth.se Hem: 046/129637 E-sektionen,Ble Dvrren: 046-141497 > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > -- Name .............: Magnus Lycka, MSc, Design Engineer | All opinions Office Address ...: Saab Ericsson Space AB | expressed here S-405 15 GOTEBORG,SWEDEN | are my own. Office Phone .....: int+46 31 354229 | Fax ..............: int+46 31 359520 | Email ............: Magnus_Lycka@space.combitech.se | From: phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu (Paul Lehman) Subject: Re: Playing non-humans >From: e90mhg@efd.lth.se (Mikael Hegardt) >Subject: Playing non-humans > >Just over the weekend my mailbox collected about 20 mails >frin "Harn-Line". I must thank Mr Parson for all the work >he puts into it!!! Seconded (or thirded or whatever). >Anyway, Petri commented on Ian McCreery's letter concerning >playing non-humans. I just thought I'd relay one of my players >reaction when seeing the stats for Khuzduhl abnd Sindarin. >He did NOT like the idea of Elves and Dwarves having these high >stats - why is it that them being so no-evil and having so high >stats they seem to die out? Colubmia gets around this by giving them low birth rates. And the stats aren't that high (given the HM combat system) so that a good/lucky shot (not to mention ambush, accident, etc) will kill. Seems to me that this would make the Sindarin especially cautious in dealing with humans. >MY response to this is to not play the elves and dwarves as the >always-nice-to-everybody non-human, but instead giving them a more >pragmatic view towards humans (and especially the PC's). This is the view that Columbia adopts, I think. Dwarves/Khuzdul are always mentioned as clanish, very shrewd/tough traders, etc. and the elves/Sindarin actively exclude humans/etc. from their kingdom/Evael Forest. Many of the modules, though, have more friendly non-humans since those are the only ones PCs are really likely to (want to) meet, and they of course make for better companions. There are also a band of dark elves profiled in a common knowledge article in HL (if I remember correctly). ---------- phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu "Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life." Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41 From: mak@ticipa.works.ti.com (Michael Kilgore) Subject: Re: Harn stuff >From: phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu (Paul Lehman) >Subject: Re: Harn stuff > >I am also not completely comfortable with the notion of short, dumb, and >brutish peasants whose outlook is limited to their liege. This makes for >good rpg if one's PCs are not peasants and makes things much simpler, and >thus easier, to GM, but I don't really imagine real medieval or fantasy >peasants would act that way (and especially think that way). I hope I did not seem to say that peasants were vassals only because they were sd&b (available Jan 94, or rsn), though it is certainly one reason. In any reasonably rich world setting the causes for feudalism, as well as the reasons it keeps on going, are pretty varied; Harn, in particular, with different forms of free cities mixed in with the most hidebound forms of feudalism, has several flavors of the system even within the same region. But there were peasants who did think (or at least act) that way, not because they were cannon fodder straight out of the computer, but because that's how one got by in life, or that's the way one liked it, or because one didn't know better, or ... (sounds of violence done to moribund equine). I sometimes think that an interesting mini-campaign to introduce players to Harn would be a year or two of caravaneering, if for no other reason than to have the pleasure of watching cultures graduate one into another as the expedition moved around the island. -- Michael Kilgore Texas Instruments, Inc. (214) 917-2219 mak@works.ti.com From: phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu (Paul Lehman) Subject: Re: Harn stuff >From: Magnus Lycka >Subject: Re: Harn stuff >[stuff deleted] >> Kethirans are said to recognize the existence of all the gods, but almost >> all pay attention, let alone, worship only one. In the end, though, this is >> something that individual GMs must decide and work out for themselves. >> >I think I've written about this before, but isn't there a some references >to cases where people in one way or another call upon several gods. I you're a >peaceful Melderyni farmer, Peoni is the natural choice, and there isn't much >use for any other god. But if you get drafted and will go into battle, I think >you might start to pray to Larani. As I remember, Lady Ygrena of Fanons Vale, >is a pious Peonian who calls upon Larani in her letter to the PCs in ISOP II. >I could also think that a Laranian knight might send Peoni a thought and a >proper donation if his wife is going through a complicated birth, as this >isn't at all Laranis field of expertise... Considering that Peoni is the >godess of chaste love and fertility, I could even think that weddings are a >Peonian institution even for Laranian knights... This is exactly the way it SHOULD be, but often I get the impression that things work out as much more monotheistic. >The closest connection between the gods are without doubt between Larani and >Peoni. There are several descriptions in the scriptures of how Peoni has >stopped Larani from letting her violence go to far... No surprise here since these are the two gods closest to medieval Europe and the most tied into the social/political/economic system. ---------- phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu "Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life." Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41 From: Magnus Lycka Subject: Re: Playing non-humans > > From: phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu (Paul Lehman) > Subject: Re: Playing non-humans > > >From: e90mhg@efd.lth.se (Mikael Hegardt) > >Subject: Playing non-humans > > > >MY response to this is to not play the elves and dwarves as the > >always-nice-to-everybody non-human, but instead giving them a more > >pragmatic view towards humans (and especially the PC's). > > This is the view that Columbia adopts, I think. Dwarves/Khuzdul are always > mentioned as clanish, very shrewd/tough traders, etc. and the > elves/Sindarin actively exclude humans/etc. from their kingdom/Evael > Forest. Many of the modules, though, have more friendly non-humans since > those are the only ones PCs are really likely to (want to) meet, and they > of course make for better companions. > Are there many modules with friendly non-humans? Araka-Kalai, Kiraz and soon the new gargun-module contains very unfriendly non-humans, but there are very few examples of interaction between humans and the elder people at all as I can remember. OK, there are settlements of Jarin decendants in both Evael and Azadmere, but otherwise, I don't recall many descriptions where humans and Sindarin or Khuzdul mingle. I must have missed something. Please enlighten me! JML -- Name .............: Magnus Lycka, MSc, Design Engineer | All opinions Office Address ...: Saab Ericsson Space AB | expressed here S-405 15 GOTEBORG,SWEDEN | are my own. Office Phone .....: int+46 31 354229 | Fax ..............: int+46 31 359520 | Email ............: Magnus_Lycka@space.combitech.se | From: THE_DA-DA_DUMMY Subject: Re: Harn stuff I left it out because I thought you said you had all the spell tomes. I also left out a number of filler (back cover, blank, a few pure add pages) pages that my copy contains. I can make copies and mail you them, if you like. They are not second edition magic compatible however, so you'ld have to tweek them anyway. lief is VERY busy, gotta go write 5 short papers and a 3 longer ones TODAY! -Duncan From: phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu (Paul Lehman) Subject: Re: Playing non-humans >Are there many modules with friendly non-humans? Araka-Kalai, Kiraz and soon >the new gargun-module contains very unfriendly non-humans, but there are very >few examples of interaction between humans and the elder people at all as I >can remember. OK, there are settlements of Jarin decendants in both Evael and >Azadmere, but otherwise, I don't recall many descriptions where humans and >Sindarin or Khuzdul mingle. I must have missed something. Please enlighten me! Not really, I meant "products" when I wrote "modules." The big examples I had in mind were the two kingdoms (and to a lesser extent the Yarili). And stuff like Daelda and the Council of Eleven should be exceptional. Sorry to pique your interest. What new gargun-module is this that is piquing my interest? ---------- phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu In Gods we trust. All others pay cash. From: Jamieson Norrish Subject: Names for tribespeople A few questions relating to the tribal people of Harn, in particular the Solori, the Bujoc (sp?) and the Hodiri near Melderyn. Firstly, is there an article covering the second group? Second, and more importantly, is there ever any information provided on suitable names for these people, or will I have to create them myself. In the case of the Solori, the only name given in the article in the Melderyn module is Matasum - not a terribly great indicator of the types of names used. Also, whose language does the name of the plant which they use as a poison come from? Also relating to language, what language is used in the naming of the constellations? Any help would be appreciated for an upcoming game. Jamie From: rcrane@wsuaix.csc.wsu.edu (useradd) Subject: Newbie questions I haven't played RPGs in a while but I was thinking about playing again. From what I've seen on the net and reading a few archives from this mail list, I think Harn may be what I'm looking for. It's set in a realistic setting with low-magic and lethal combat. This, of course, discourages munchinism. Personally, I can't stand (1) all powerful characters where death is of little or no threat (boring!), and (2) unrealistic campaigns that borrow from just about every fictional genre there is (i.e., multi-dimensional RPGs). Whew! Glad to get that off my chest. Hopefully, most of you can relate. My main question is how does the Harn system differ from GURPS? I am familiar with the GURP mechanics and I have heard of people using the Harn setting with GURP, but are the strength and weakness of each with respect to each other? Does the harn system offer anything above GURPS? I went to my local hobby store today to see if I could check out the two main Harn sourcebooks but they weren't in stock. The vender said that they could special order something for me but that they weren't planning on carrying Harn products anymore because of no local interest in the system. I know that I can mailorder products direct from Columbia Games but what are the P&H costs and do they sell below retail? Last, are there any PBEM games in the Harn settings out there? :-) Bob "Limbo" Crane rcrane@wsuaix.csc.wsu.edu From: klaus@diku.dk Subject: Re: Identify this game OK, here are the answers. Name the world: Tekumel Name the game system: Empire of the Petal Throne Name the 3 gods mentioned: Karakan, Vimuhla, and Thumis Note BTW that while the priests of Karakan himself dress in red, those of his "cohort" dress in chequered red an white. Klaus O K From: Magnus Lycka Subject: Re: Playing non-humans > > From: phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu (Paul Lehman) > Subject: Re: Playing non-humans > > >Are there many modules with friendly non-humans? Araka-Kalai, Kiraz and soon > >the new gargun-module contains very unfriendly non-humans, but there are very > >few examples of interaction between humans and the elder people at all as I > >can remember. OK, there are settlements of Jarin decendants in both Evael and > >Azadmere, but otherwise, I don't recall many descriptions where humans and > >Sindarin or Khuzdul mingle. I must have missed something. Please enlighten me! > > Not really, I meant "products" when I wrote "modules." The big examples I > had in mind were the two kingdoms (and to a lesser extent the Yarili). And > stuff like Daelda and the Council of Eleven should be exceptional. > > Sorry to pique your interest. What new gargun-module is this that is > piquing my interest? > 5071 Nasty, Brutish & Short OCT/93 ??? $16.00 A module detailing Harn's gargun, with local maps and plans of six foulspawn settlements. > > ---------- > phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu > > In Gods we trust. All others pay cash. > JML -- Name .............: Magnus Lycka, MSc, Design Engineer | All opinions Office Address ...: Saab Ericsson Space AB | expressed here S-405 15 GOTEBORG,SWEDEN | are my own. Office Phone .....: int+46 31 354229 | Fax ..............: int+46 31 359520 | Email ............: Magnus_Lycka@space.combitech.se | From: surman@vortex.lgs.lsu.edu (Michael A. Surman) Subject: Re: Identify this game >Name the world: Tekumel >Name the game system: Empire of the Petal Throne >Name the 3 gods mentioned: Karakan, Vimuhla, and Thumis I thought it sounded familiar! It's been quite awhile since I played EPT. Barker had created an interesting world. Unfortunately it never caught on so there wasn't much produced. Though they have done a second edition but that seems to be going the same way as the first edition. Mike From: Magnus Lycka Subject: Arabian Nights... Hi there Harners, I have this idea about putting my bold adventurers through a scenario that takes place in a foreign country where they are culturally lost and don't understand the language. I'd like this to happen in a setting big city is that is lot like Baghdad in Arabian Nights. I don't have the Lythia map available, so I don't remeber the proper names, but I think you understand what I mean if I say that I'd like to place it on the Lythian "Red Sea" coast, somewhere close to "Saudi Arabia". I have a few question based on this: Have anyone developed this region (or some other Lythian region away from the NW part)? Can you recommend any practically usable sources of info related to "Arabian Nights" or a similar setting? (I think there is a GURPS module. Is that any good?) Do you have any ideas about culture and religion there? Do they have the same world view as Harn? Do they have other gods than the 10 we know? Do they worship spirits or demigods? BTW, my idea of a lead-in is that the PCs are abducted in the shadier parts of a harbour somewhere, shipped south east and sold as slaves in this place. Then there is a lot of things that can happen... JML -- Name .............: Magnus Lycka, MSc, Design Engineer | All opinions Office Address ...: Saab Ericsson Space AB | expressed here S-405 15 GOTEBORG,SWEDEN | are my own. Office Phone .....: int+46 31 354229 | Fax ..............: int+46 31 359520 | Email ............: Magnus_Lycka@space.combitech.se | From: Mark Hazen Subject: RE: Names for tribespeople There are articles on each of the tribes. Solori and Hodiri in the Melderyn module (I think Hodiri is there) and Bujoc was in one of the EH or Chybisa modules. I could provide the Bujoc article if required. On the subject of names I have in the past gone to great lengths coming up with names etc. But generally they get mangled by the players and so have fallen back on Sam, Joe, Bob etc. I know it takes away from the atmosphere a bit but on the other hand it is a well known phenomena that people from different cultures apply their own names to other people, and often people from one culture interacting with another will take a name from the second to facilitate the matter. What do other people do? My group are not interested in long involved names for NPCs who start off the game wearing red shirts and ready to beam down to the planet. In fact they regard almost everyone in this matter until they survive an adventure or two. Mark From: phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu (Paul Lehman) Subject: Re: Names for tribespeople >A few questions relating to the tribal people of Harn, in particular >the Solori, the Bujoc (sp?) and the Hodiri near Melderyn. Firstly, is >there an article covering the second group? Yes, he says consulting his Harn article index, but it is in Encyclopedia Harn 11 (not Harnlore). I double checked Chybisa and Melderyn and the Bujoc article did not make it into either of those modules. Other nearby stuff only available in EH include Bejist, Herblore, Ilme, Pagaelin, and Telumar. Whew, I didn't think it would be so much. >Second, and more >importantly, is there ever any information provided on suitable names >for these people, or will I have to create them myself. In the case of >the Solori, the only name given in the article in the Melderyn module >is Matasum - not a terribly great indicator of the types of names >used. Also, whose language does the name of the plant which they use >as a poison come from? There is, as is the case with most tribal people, little help with names, although the Bujoc are, IMHO, one of the more interesting peoples. There is quite a bit about them that is different from your run of the mill tribe/barbarian, much of it due to the nebulous influence of Melderyni mages. I'll quote the paragraph on language specifically: >>The Bujoc language is an obscure dialect of Harnic, although it contains >>a few significant differences that would be immediately apparant to >>outsiders. The most obvious of these is the universal pronoun "Ah" meaning >>variously "he," "she," "they," "it," "we," etc. as applicable. This seems >>to relate strongly to the Bujoc view of the world. >Also relating to language, what language is used in the naming of the >constellations? Not sure (or even if it is specified or an individual language). ---------- phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu In Gods we trust. All others pay cash. From: phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu (Paul Lehman) Subject: Re: Newbie questions >I haven't played RPGs in a while but I was thinking >about playing again. From what I've seen on the net >and reading a few archives from this mail list, I think >Harn may be what I'm looking for. It's set in a realistic >setting with low-magic and lethal combat. This, >of course, discourages munchinism. It is. >Personally, I can't stand (1) all powerful characters >where death is of little or no threat (boring!), and >(2) unrealistic campaigns that borrow from just >about every fictional genre there is (i.e., multi-dimensional >RPGs). Whew! Glad to get that off my chest. Hopefully, >most of you can relate. We can. It's why we like Harn. Robin Crossby (the creater of Harn, etc.), however, DOES like multi-dimensional RPGs. Many of his spells and adventures utilize the concept of travelling between dimensions, most of which are much more power laden than Harn/Kethira. Almost always these are pretty strictly within the fantasy genre and there should be little "leakage" between dimensions. I think you'll like the way that aspect works. And as is the case with all Harn products, you can pretty easily set the magic and power level to suit your tastes (it is pretty low already, but could go lower if you wanted). >My main question is how does the Harn system differ >from GURPS? I am familiar with the GURP mechanics and I have >heard of people using the Harn setting with GURP, >but are the strength and weakness of each with respect to each other? >Does the harn system offer anything above GURPS? There has been a lot of discussion about this recently. Perhaps you caught or still can catch some of it from the newsgroup or maybe it is already archived. If not, someone else would be better qualified to tackle this one. >I went to my local hobby store today to see if I could >check out the two main Harn sourcebooks but they weren't >in stock. The vender said that they could special order >something for me but that they weren't planning on carrying >Harn products anymore because of no local interest in the system. >I know that I can mailorder products direct from >Columbia Games but what are the P&H costs and do >they sell below retail? No. P&H is about a dollar per item. Mail J. D. Frazer at a481@mindlink.bc.ca for a price list, etc. He is the official online rep. of Columbia Games. >Last, are there any PBEM games in the Harn settings out there? :-) Only one I know about. It is Michael Matson's (run from his bbs in Humboldt County, CA) on Fidonet/VNet. I don't have his addresses handy, but can find them later if there is interest. ---------- phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu In Gods we trust. All others pay cash. From: Magnus Lycka Subject: Re: Identify this game > > From: klaus@diku.dk > Subject: Re: Identify this game > > OK, here are the answers. > > Name the world: Tekumel > Name the game system: Empire of the Petal Throne > Name the 3 gods mentioned: Karakan, Vimuhla, and Thumis > > Note BTW that while the priests of Karakan himself dress > in red, those of his "cohort" dress in chequered red an white. > Sounds like a Harn clone to me. Which one was first? (Harn or Tekumel) JML -- Name .............: Magnus Lycka, MSc, Design Engineer | All opinions Office Address ...: Saab Ericsson Space AB | expressed here S-405 15 GOTEBORG,SWEDEN | are my own. Office Phone .....: int+46 31 354229 | Fax ..............: int+46 31 359520 | Email ............: Magnus_Lycka@space.combitech.se | From: lee@sq.com Subject: Re: Harn stuff > From: phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu (Paul Lehman) > Subject: Re: Harn stuff > > I am also not completely comfortable with the notion of short, dumb, and > brutish peasants whose outlook is limited to their liege. This makes for > good rpg if one's PCs are not peasants and makes things much simpler, and > thus easier, to GM, but I don't really imagine real medieval or fantasy > peasants would act that way (and especially think that way). It was certainly true in most of Mediaeval England that the `common folk' did not look often beyond theur own village. In fact, they were not generally allowed to travel beyond their village bounds... In order to keep the rural peasants separate, there were even laws forbidding peasants to wear anything on their feet within a certain distance of a town; in some countries, peasants were forbidden dyed clothing of certain colours, especially purple, which was reseved for nobility. Of course, this doesn't mean that the people were innately stupid, or that they were short (they were, as it happens, probably because of diet; try sleeping in a mediaeval bed some day, say a 4'6" or 5" one). Anglo-Saxons were astonished when Caedmon spouted forth poetry; in 18th C. Bedfordshire, people were astonished when an illiterate peasant called Robert Bloomfield produced poetry that was at least reasonably coherent. In other words, attitudes towards these people are, I think, not unreasonably reflected in Harn. Lee -- Liam Quin, Manager of Contracting, SoftQuad Inc +1 416 239 4801 lee@sq.com `The *Ende of a thing is better then the beginning thereof, and the pacient in spi= rit is better than the proude in spirit [Ecc.7.10, 1581] Note* He noteth their lightness which enterterprise a thing, and suddenly leaue it offe againe. From: pcrxs@valinor.giss.nasa.gov (R.B. Schmunk) Subject: Re: Names for tribespeople Jamieson Norrish writes: >A few questions relating to the tribal people of Harn, in particular >the Solori, the Bujoc (sp?) and the Hodiri near Melderyn. Firstly, is >there an article covering the second group? The Bujoc article is in the Chybisa module. >Second, and more >importantly, is there ever any information provided on suitable names >for these people, or will I have to create them myself. In the case of >the Solori, the only name given in the article in the Melderyn module >is Matasum - not a terribly great indicator of the types of names >used. There's very little in any of the tribal articles on names. (The only Bujoc name I can recall at the moment is something like An-Wah.) In fact, there's little in the tribal articles on tribal languages. I only know of one tribe that definitely has its own language: Taelda. One or two others, I've seen comments that they either speak dialects of Harnic, Jarin or Taelda. As for the rest, well, I asked JD Frazer the question a couple months ago; perhaps the answer will appear in HarnLore. >Also, whose language does the name of the plant which they use >as a poison come from? If no language name is given and its not obvious from the context, I always assume Harnic. >Also relating to language, what language is used in the naming of the >constellations? Assume Harnic. However, reflect on the fact that the constellations and their names used by Americans (and presumably all Europe) are based on the Roman. Consequently, while the Kethiran constellation names we've been given may be in Harnic, they're likely the same names in Jarinese and Emela, which are both sister descendants with Harnic from Old Jarinese. BTW, I've been informed from close to the horse's mouth that the religious titles used in Gods of Harn are *not* in Harnic. They're in the appropriate temple tongues. rbs -- R.B. Schmunk Email: pcrxs@valinor.giss.nasa.gov Smail: NASA/Goddard Institute, 2880 Broadway, New York, NY 10025 USA Vox: 212-678-5637 From: Jamieson Norrish Subject: RE: Names for tribespeople > From: Mark Hazen > Subject: RE: Names for tribespeople > > There are articles on each of the tribes. Solori and Hodiri > in the Melderyn module (I think Hodiri is there) and Bujoc was in > one of the EH or Chybisa modules. I could provide the Bujoc > article if required. How would you provde the article on the Bujoc? (the Hodiri and Solori are indeed in the Melderyn module)? I would dearly love to get at least some more information on this tribe. The version of Chybisa I have (which is very short) has only Laws and Burzyn in it (as well as Chybisa, of course). [Ed. Note: Please, please, please... Don't make me a party to copyright infringement. No passing of 'copies' of stuff over the net, especially with one of Columbia Games' senior employees on our mailing list. Jamie, if you want the article, inquire from a481@mindlink.bc.ca J.D. Frazer, the Columbia Games Internet Representative. -Eric] > On the subject of names I have in the past gone to great lengths > coming up with names etc. But generally they get mangled by the > players and so have fallen back on Sam, Joe, Bob etc. Has anyone compiled lists of names used in various cultures for their own games? It would be simple enough to go through the modules for "normal" Harnic names, but the tribespeople are another matter entirely. This sort of thing would be a great addition to the appropriate articles, I think. Unfortunately, it's rather hard to come up with names which suit anyone else's idea of the language, since there is so little to go on. Jamie From: Magnus Lycka Subject: Temple Tongues > BTW, I've been informed from close to the horse's mouth that the > religious titles used in Gods of Harn are *not* in Harnic. They're > in the appropriate temple tongues. Is there a special lingo for each of the 10 churches? If so, are they related to the local languages where each god has his "center of attention"? I mean, Ilvir is typically Harnic (or rather Jarinese), I associate Agrik with Azeryan (whether that's correct or not), and there is something in the Lythia module about Naveh worship in a city close to Tel Aviv if you know what I mean. (South East of Azeryan anyway.) BTW, when religion is up: I've argued that people can worship several gods (if they're "compatible"), but I do assume that all clerics have to devote themselves totally to one church. > > rbs > -- > R.B. Schmunk > Email: pcrxs@valinor.giss.nasa.gov > Smail: NASA/Goddard Institute, 2880 Broadway, New York, NY 10025 USA > Vox: 212-678-5637 > JML -- Name .............: Magnus Lycka, MSc, Design Engineer | All opinions Office Address ...: Saab Ericsson Space AB | expressed here S-405 15 GOTEBORG,SWEDEN | are my own. Office Phone .....: int+46 31 354229 | Fax ..............: int+46 31 359520 | Email ............: Magnus_Lycka@space.combitech.se | From: pcrxs@valinor.giss.nasa.gov (R.B. Schmunk) Subject: RE: Names for tribespeople >From: phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu (Paul Lehman) >Subject: Re: Names for tribespeople > >>A few questions relating to the tribal people of Harn, in particular >>the Solori, the Bujoc (sp?) and the Hodiri near Melderyn. Firstly, is >>there an article covering the second group? > >Yes, he says consulting his Harn article index, but it is in Encyclopedia >Harn 11 (not Harnlore). I double checked Chybisa and Melderyn and the Bujoc >article did not make it into either of those modules. Other nearby stuff >only available in EH include Bejist, Herblore, Ilme, Pagaelin, and Telumar. >Whew, I didn't think it would be so much. I earlier stated that Bujoc was in the Chybisa module, but Paul's comment here reminds me that there are two versions of the module. The current version does not include the various articles mentioned, but does include Law and something else. The first version (the one that I have) was just a couple of EHs stuffed in a cover, and thence did include these articles. Sorry about my earlier comment. rbs -- R.B. Schmunk Email: pcrxs@valinor.giss.nasa.gov Smail: NASA/Goddard Institute, 2880 Broadway, New York, NY 10025 USA Vox: 212-678-5637 From: lee@sq.com Subject: Re: Names for tribespeople I have a random name generator somewhere... I typed a few names from various pages in Harn -- I think I used the EH land indexes -- broke them into syllables, and glued the syllables back in random *? combinations, and printed out a few hundred. I then kept the sheet of paper hidden behind the gm screen I made... so that I could always name people v. quickly. Then players can't tell if a character is important or not by the name.... I *always* avoid names with meta-jokes in them, like Initiative Six or whatever. If I find it, I can put the name generator on the ftp site if anyone wants it; it assumes Unix, but might work on other systems, it's a decade or so since I looked at it! Lee lee@sq.com the barefoot harnist :-)