From: e90mhg@efd.lth.se (Mikael Hegardt) Subject: Peoni and dogs I just had a look in an old Harnlore, HL4 (by the way, HL4 is dated Winter 1987). When reading about sheepdogs, I read the following: "... and a bushy tail which is often removed (for sacrifice to Peoni). ... A sacrifice to Peoni? I qoute from Gods of Harn, Peoni 1: " The restorer, Bringer of the Life Renewed, Maker of Balms, Lady of Truth" ... etc. It doesn't make sense that a dogs tail is sacrificed to Peoni, who to me is one of the "good" guys. Although I wouldn't allow this practice in my campaigns, maybee someone else has something to say in the matter...? -----------------------------------------M-----M-I--CCC-M-----M---A----CCC--- Mikael Hegardt M M M M I C M M M M A A C Institute of Technology, Lund, Sweden M M M I C M M M AAAAA C Macapdr, E-sektionen LTH M M I CCC M M A A CCC - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - E-Mail: e90mhg@efd.lth.se Hem: 046/129637 E-sektionen,Ble Dvrren: 046-141497 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Magnus Lycka Subject: Re: Peoni and dogs > > From: e90mhg@efd.lth.se (Mikael Hegardt) > Subject: Peoni and dogs > [stuff deleted] > > It doesn't make sense that a dogs tail is sacrificed to Peoni, who to > me is one of the "good" guys. Although I wouldn't allow this practice > in my campaigns, maybee someone else has something to say in the > matter...? The Hindus in Bali give offerings of rice, flowers and incense to their gods. As far as I understand, catholics light candles to the godess (?) Mary etc. Ok, a dogtail seems to be a slightly more brutal offering, but it's just recently that chopping of dogs tails was made illegal in Sweden, and I think it's still practiced in some countries. The sheepdog can probably lead a fairly happy life anyway, so as far as I understand harnians and peonians, this could be a reasonable thing to do. Still, without any explanation of why it's done, it seems to be a fairly strange habit. I get the feeling someone (by the way who wrote the article?) thought, 'Hm, is there something we can do with this cut of dogs tail? Waste nothing! Ah, we'll give it to Peoni, that sounds exotic.' On the other hand, with a decent background, it could be reasonable. Perhaps our CG representative could bring us some enlightenment from the knowers of many things in western Canada on this subject. I think I could need some more knowledge on religious practices, how religion affects society, and how religions are practiced on the whole. There has been some discussions on the list about marriages etc, but the subject has still a lot to give I think. The life in a harnic town or village, with religion as a significant part of it, could perhaps be a subject for an article in HL? The Gods of Harn module had many good sides, but it didn't say very much about how the life of the ordinary citizen (or PC) was affected by these factors. > > -----------------------------------------M-----M-I--CCC-M-----M---A----CCC--- > Mikael Hegardt M M M M I C M M M M A A C > Institute of Technology, Lund, Sweden M M M I C M M M AAAAA C > Macapdr, E-sektionen LTH M M I CCC M M A A CCC > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > E-Mail: e90mhg@efd.lth.se Hem: 046/129637 E-sektionen,Ble Dvrren: 046-141497 > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- Name .............: Magnus Lycka, MSc, Design Engineer | All opinions Office Address ...: Saab Ericsson Space AB | expressed here S-405 15 GOTEBORG,SWEDEN | are my own. Office Phone .....: int+46 31 354229 | Fax ..............: int+46 31 359520 | Email ............: Magnus_Lycka@space.combitech.se | From: THE_DA-DA_DUMMY Subject: Re: Peoni and dogs As to who wrote that article, it was N.robin himself, as to the reasons why one would remove a dogs tale as a sacrifice, who can say? The legend of how peoni stepped on agriks tail when he was about to strike Larani down, perhaps? So pure was her touch that agriks tail came right off? Perhaps it's a misprint, and they ment larani? That would make more sense, from most points of view. My theory would be that the tails are cut off fr purely practacle reasons (they tend to get wounded and infected, or hot spots and chewed, and so are removed, and the legend/sacrifce that goes with it grew up afterward. Remember, the greeks used to make sacrifice of a cow, and after killing it, would wrap the thigh bones with fat and gristle, and perhaps a poor cut of meat, and eat the rest themselves. The gods were given the parts nobody wanted anyway. Perhaps it is the same with the tail. -Duncan From: phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu (Paul Lehman) Subject: Re: Peoni and dogs >It doesn't make sense that a dogs tail is sacrificed to Peoni, who to >me is one of the "good" guys. Although I wouldn't allow this practice >in my campaigns, maybee someone else has something to say in the >matter...? Basically I agree with you, but let me take a shot at making up something (sorta?) believable: in the natural world it is often necessary to sacrifice a part of something/the individual to improve/reproduce/survive. As goddess of many of these aspects (healing and reproduction at least) Peoni recognizes sacrifices for these purposes. As to how a dog's tail fits in, either (a) assume that mere humans cannot know the will of the deity and have just gotten things wrong, (b) it is an older tradition more in tune with the old version of Peoni [see Gods of Harn], (c) Peoni just isn't as sweet and wholesome as often made out to be (she doen't have to be a Christian type saint in the fashion of Mother Theresa). I kinda like (c), but (a) works well in role-playing situations since I often think that characters in fantasy worlds know too much about their gods (who can become sort of like mentors and parents rather than DEITIES whose whim IS reality!). This makes (b) kind of like a fudge between (a) and (c). How'd I do? ---------- phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu A bartender is just a pharmacist with a limited inventory. From: phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu (Paul Lehman) Subject: Re: Re: Peoni and dogs >From: Magnus Lycka >Subject: Re: Peoni and dogs > >Ok, a dogtail seems to be a slightly more brutal offering, but it's just >recently that chopping of dogs tails was made illegal in Sweden, and I think >it's still practiced in some countries. Here in Texas it is almost easier to shoot a burglar than clip a hunting dog, although nobody would raise an eyebrow at clipping dogs' tails here. We still hold rattlesnake roundups! :-| (smiley unsure whether this is funny or not) >(by the way who wrote the article?) N. Robin Crossby. >I think I could >need some more knowledge on religious practices, how religion affects >society, and how religions are practiced on the whole. There has been some >discussions on the list about marriages etc, but the subject has still a lot >to give I think. I'm trying to get together a repost from some of the stuff about religion that was discussed on the VNET Echo. Give me a few more days. ---------- phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu A bartender is just a pharmacist with a limited inventory. From: phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu (Paul Lehman) Subject: Fidonet repost (1/3) ****************************************** Review of BattleLust, Part I 6/12/93 by Paul Lehman ****************************************** Like the rest of you I got BattleLust a while ago and looked through it, but then got sidetracked trying to work out some of the details of the muster and kingdom tables. Still, there are a few things I wanted to point out because I haven't seen anyone else say them, Columbia should hear them, and I am hoping to generate some traffic in the echo. 1) The morale rules look like a quick and dirty expansion of Quick Combat from HarnMaster. They still require GM decisions when most of us, I think, want a wargame/miniatures system featuring automatic/randomized response. I would much prefer a morale system something like Advanced Squad Leader with individual morales, battlefield integrity, and individual modifiers for wounds, fatigue, leadership/heros, etc. 2) There is no provision for fatigue. Enough said. 3) The section on Harnic geography and culture is slightly changed from what has been published before (p. 38-45). At first glance it appeared to be just a compilation of stuff pulled from various sources, but that's not really so. The changes may be subtle, but they are there and can be significant if you are working out whole villages, shires or feudal armies. (I hope somebody else is interested in this sort of stuff since I am.) 4) The Feudal Muster Table EXAMPLE on page 50 is wrong in two ways. First, 33.6 does not round to 37. Second, and more importantly, you should multiply the figure given for scutage by the TOTAL number of manors in the fief, NOT the number paying scutage (that's why the amounts change!). 5) The bit about a two month campaign season starting in spring and the feudal levy serving (only) during the campaign season does not entirely square with what has been written (especially about Skorkyne) and what happened during the Terran medieval ages. 6) Unarmored shortbowmen (foot) are listed in the tables on page 51 but nowhere else. There are no costs for them, no cards, no nothing, not even in the tribal nations section! (I have given them a cost of 3s/month for the calculations below.) 7) If you total up the value/cost of the knight equivalents and the knights themselves (still on page 51), each KE is worth 26.75 shillings/month but each knight is worth either 35.7525 s/month during peacetime or 38.9625 s/month during wartime. Granted that the KEs have numbers on their side, but it still seems like a raw deal to get KEs instead of knights. And I do not understand what all the (superficial?) detail about knightly retinues is about. It creates a lot of extra work and previous rules have just talked about squires and pages (LH) accompanying knights, OR mention that knights bring some yeomen with them (which is already covered by the separate 1/600 acres rule, RIGHT?). If the whole idea here is to generate the total feudal muster, why not just use the KEs as they are, realizing that the numbers generated do not reflect any particular manor but rather the whole fief's average (or sum) muster. 8) Moving to the other side of page 51, the Wartime Muster section states that the formula for yeoman (Acres*LQ/2400) produces one yeoman per four manors. Incorrect. It produces one yeoman per manor and a half (at 1600 acres/manor and an LQ of 1.00). That formula would produce one yeoman per four manors only if manors average 600 acres each. What's going on here? Is it perhaps that only 1/4th of all yeoman (who exist at the rate of 1/600 acres) volunteer for the wartime muster? 9) Consideration of the peasant volunteers suggests that this is so. They show up for the muster at the rate of 1/300 acres which is about 1/6th the rate at which feudal militia occurs (1/household at 50 acres/household). Thus half the knights, 1/4th the yeomen, and 1/6th the peasant militia volunteer for service in the wartime muster. Makes good sense; I just wish Columbia would spell it out more clearly. BTW, unarmored shortbowmen pop up again here too. 10) Finally, last thing on page 51: the aid formula. Like some of the other formulas, I think that there are superfluous or incorrectly used parentheses here. As written it yields just a little more than 1d/acre which is equal to the fief's "net revenue" (except for cities which don't really yield all that much; e.g. Tashal pays just 570d or about the same as a small village does on its acreage). It would seem about right for the 0.25 multiplier to be applied to the acreage (yielding an effective tax rate of 25% on fief "income"?) and taxing households at the full 1d/each, or perhaps even more. Shorkyne cities pay 100 pounds (24,000d) a year in aids/taxes which works out to about 10-20+ d/HH. Surely Harnic cities can and do pay more than 1d/HH in taxes, and to make the effective aid rate about 25% (and thus equal to the rural rate) would require a city aid to be about 3-6d/HH. ****************************************** Review of BattleLust, Part II 6/12/93 by Paul Lehman ****************************************** Part I listed 10 specific comments about BattleLust's section on Harn and feudal musters. This part discusses the Kingdom of Kaldor summary on page 52. Comparison of that summary with the figures given in the Kaldor module's infeudation list show several mistakes: 1) Kobing has 14 manors not 10. 2) Shebra's acreage is 48580 not 48450. 3) Gardiren's acreage is 34925 not 34930. 4) Kolorn has 16 manors not 10. 5) Kolorn's acreage is 32760 not 25290. 6) Kolorn's LQ is 1.18 not 1.20. 7) Kolorn's holds equal 618 not 462. Kingdom totals after corrections: 510 manors, 955,190 acres, and 21,896 holds. This, of course is only the secular part of Kaldor. The Church of Larani holds altogether 91 fiefs, 195,580 acres, and 3552 holds while the Peonians have 3 fiefs, 5940 acres, and 120 holds. Total Kaldoran figures: 604 manors/fiefs, 1,156,710 acres, and 25,568 holds (plus 29 keeps/castles and Tashal). At a rate of 5 people/HH this means that there are AT LEAST 127,840 people in Kaldor compared the given figure of 105,000 (22% over). A spot check with the old EH figures shows several adjustments (BTW, it gives average HH size as 4.5 people): Tashal goes from 430 acres to "n/a" and from 2467 holds to 2280, and several of the other keeps/castles also change the number of HHs they have. (Tashal's change in HHs makes it given population of 11,400 equal exactly 5 people/HH whereas the population and hold figures for the keep/castle settlements do NOT match up.) In total, 194 holds were added to the keeps and castles of Kaldor between EH and the Kaldor module. Before I go on, I want to share a few facts I gleaned from the computerized infeudation list I have created. Out of the 604 total manors and fiefs in Kaldor 228 are managed by bailiffs, 25 by Bailiffs of the Hundred, 24 by Reblenas, and 28 by religious officials, leaving about 299 (49.5%) in secular hands (mostly landed knights?). Like many of you, I have always appreciated the detail in Harn, but never noticed that there exist 6 clans that hold two fiefs each: Claune, Curo, Ercamber, Heberon, Lartyne, and Scaundy. In addition, 10 other clans have very similar names: Kobarn and Kobarney, Walorn and Walorne, Dariune and Darjuin (?), and Dracayne, Dracyne, Dracyme, and Draugyn. (More detail is available if you want it.) Unfortunately, there also exist several classes of people whom I have difficulty accounting for: 1) The households of the holders of these fiefs. The figures given in Kaldor are for households "on the fief" and has never included the holder of the fief. Assuming that the liege's household is included in this number is possible, but goes against what has been already published and screws up the social breakdown. There are 634 such HHs in Kaldor for 3170 total people. 2) The population living in Forest Hundreds. EH said that there were settlements of less than 10 people (20 for the new listings?) not shown on the map or listed, and that they were already included in those that were listed. Presumably, they were included in the closest settlement or the one in which they were legally resident/paid taxes. Forest hundreds, however, have few settlements in which to find a few extra HHs. Indeed, many have no settlements and NO fiefs for the Bailiffs/Foresters of such hundreds are shown on the map (Melderyn is a semi-exception). How many people this involves depends on what you think forest hundreds (and wilderness areas in general) are like. Kaldor has 18 Forest hundreds and each may have 10 to a few hundred people not listed anywhere else for a total of 200 to a few thousand total. 3) The Royal Guard (6 companies) and the march armies (4 companies each). These 14 companies would equal 280 men at full strength. Some of them would be supporting families while most would probably be single men who could be grouped into HHs (a manus equals 5 men equals an average HH). At the minimum these men represent 56 HHs and probably something like 100 in total given that they are more likely to be at full strength and better paid than average. The same problem occurs with the garrisons of the 5 castles (2 companies each) and 24 keeps (1 company each). These 34 companies equate to maybe 200 households or so. Altogether then, standing military units need about 300 HHs and equal 960 men at paper strength (Tashal's town guard can come out of its 2280 HHs). I also find it troublesome that these standing forces as well as the considerable forces of the Laranians (especially the fighting orders with their "twice-the-average" number of troops) were left out of the national muster lists (page 52-55). 4) Guildmaster/mining settlements are not included in the Kaldor infeudation. There are about 30-40 mines in Kaldor with about 10-15 HHs each for approximately 450 HHs total (according to EH figures). Even by themselves, items 3 and 4 (and maybe 2) are too big to just "fold" into the population of the keeps and castles. (Mining communities likely hold their land directly from the king or his agent, the sheriffs, and I just don't see how they can possibly be included in manorial totals.) The total population of Kaldor's keeps and castles is 2894 HHs, some part of which is urban freemen: 1682 HHs (EH), 1736 HHs (60%), or 1977 HHs (my own method). This is especially true for the smallest "urban" settlements around some of the keeps which may have only a handful of UF households. To close out this review of BattleLust which has turned into a critique of Kaldoran demography, two comments. First, Tashal itself is a dynamic place especially during the trading season when hundreds to thousands (?) of people and caravans congregate there. Households and individuals will be constantly coming and going, being started and ending, and it makes little sense to try to keep a precise count. The structure of the city-its physical layout and components plus the social and economic structures (franchises, temples, traditions, common knowledge, etc.)-and its key players are what is important. Thus, it should be and has been treated differently than the rest of the kingdom which is predominantly rural and more staid. Second, it might make sense for rural households to have a greater average size than urban ones. Medieval terran cities only existed through constant immigration from the countryside, and Harn's urban populace seems to have pretty grim living conditions. As consistent as such a change would be with terran history and culture, it would require careful thinking because of the extra complications it would generate, and Harnic cities aren't all that urban anyway. ****************************************** Some More Comments on BattleLust (Part III) 6/24/93 by Paul Lehman ****************************************** After thinking about it for a while it seems to me that nobility on Harn is getting taxed/levied at twice the rate of their Shorkyni counterparts. What follows is a theoretical basis for a Harnic equivalent of California's Proposition 13. As it stands now, scutage is L10 per manor on Harn and in Shorkyne. Unfortunately for Harnic nobility not all fiefs are created equal. Shorkyni ones are twice as big and should thus net (roughly) twice the revenue. This is nicely represented by the fact that Shorkyni spears owe service for 90 days and Harnic feudal service averages 45 days. This is if anything a slight break for Harnians since the average 1500 acre manor only owes 2.5 yeoman compared to the 3 commoners (LI, MI, and archer) present in Shorkyni spears. Shorkyne 1 HC, 1 LC, 1 LI, 1 MI, 1 archer for 90 days/3000 acres Harn 1 HC, 1 LC, 2.5 yeomen for 45 days/1500 acres Now this all suggests that when feudal dues are rendered in military service there exists a fundamentally similar tax/levy rate. But since the total scutage amounts are the same, it means that the effective rate for Harnians is double that of the Shorkyni (or double what it would be if service were actually rendered). Thus average scutage on Harn should be L5 or 1200d per manor. I find it interesting that Columbia has backed off of some of the kind of detail it used to provide. Gone are villages held by reeves and mining settlements held directly from the king. In EH7 the infeudation given clearly calculated the number of days service a knight owed as 1 day per 25 acres (scutable at 12-24d/day). Rural revenue to a lord worked out to an average of 2d/acre whereas urban households yielded 88d yearly. Garrisons are expressed in terms of men-at-arms and common soldiers and sheriffs clearly have more men-at-arms than earls or barons (there the ones doing the policing after all). ---------- phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu A bartender is just a pharmacist with a limited inventory. From: Magnus Lycka Subject: Re: ML's for PC's and NPC's A typical PC and some NPC need to get proficient in a lot of skills. At least my campaigns are of the type where narrow minded fighters will have problems. A mage shouldn't get to good to quickly, but in time he must be able to master perhaps a dozen spells, several scripts and languages, and a few other skills as well. And there must be at least a slim chance that he survives until he gets there. A more "physically" inclined character might need to use DRs for several weapons, a shield, riding, climbing, swimming and a number of other skills in various areas. Many NPCs, on the other side, can specialize in perhaps just one skill all of their active life; for instance weaponcraft or shipwright. It's very different to have 200 DRs for 10 skills, or to have 200 DRs for one skill. There where postings a few years back (can be found in the archive) that suggested 20*SI hours for employment DR and 5*SI for training, instead of 40h and 12h. I haven't made any proper analysis, but a few tests of the system where 20*SI hours is needed for an employment DR instead of 40h, suggests that the double time is needed to get to ML70, and triple time to get to ML100. It's still to advantageous to be used to find out what ML a random village blacksmith has I think. A thing I don't like with the above system is that it's quicker for a character with SB11 to get from ML28 (SB+17) to ML29, than for a character with SB18 to get from ML35 (also SB+17) to ML36. This tends to favour the characters with a lower talent to much I think. The advantage on the other side, is that it gets gradually more difficult to improve from employment and training, whereas the idea of putting a roof at 7*SB or 50+4*SB makes characters learn fast until they run into a wall in a strange way. Perhaps the two systems aught to be combined, so that a maximum ML of perhaps 7*SB is used in the same way as the ML69 "roof" for combat skills. Above that, only critical use of the skill will lead to improvements. Below that, employment and training DRs could be awarded as described in the archives. For me it seems reasonable that a blacksmith with SB 12 and ML 84 won't get any better from mundane every day plough-making. On the other hand, a challenging order to make a new kind of contraption might give him a DR. JML -- Name .............: Magnus Lycka, MSc, Design Engineer | All opinions Office Address ...: Saab Ericsson Space AB | expressed here S-405 15 GOTEBORG,SWEDEN | are my own. Office Phone .....: int+46 31 354229 | Fax ..............: int+46 31 359520 | Email ............: Magnus_Lycka@space.combitech.se | From: phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu (Paul Lehman) Subject: Re: ML's for PC's and NPC's >I haven't made any proper analysis, but a few tests of the system where 20*SI >hours is needed for an employment DR instead of 40h, suggests that the double >time is needed to get to ML70, and triple time to get to ML100. It's clear, of course, that this would result in characters more naturally proficient in a skill (higher SB), being required to spend more hours training than less proficient characters. >Perhaps the two systems aught to be >combined, so that a maximum ML of perhaps 7*SB is used in the same way as the >ML69 "roof" for combat skills. Above that, only critical use of the skill will >lead to improvements. Below that, employment and training DRs could be awarded >as described in the archives. I think this is a good idea. It also seems to fit my parsimony requirement in that it keeps the rules as simple as possible and fits in with the rules already in place. Critical would mean, in some contexts, taking risks and challenging oneself in one's craft: making a broadsword for the king, mixing a potion for the Council of Eleven, etc. (including LESSER tasks as well). >For me it seems reasonable that a blacksmith with SB 12 and ML 84 won't get any >better from mundane every day plough-making. On the other hand, a challenging >order to make a new kind of contraption might give him a DR. Quite true. For PCs it comes down to GMs assigning DRs as they INDIVIDUALLY see fit. For computer generated NPCs this is a slightly different problem. ---------- phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu [He] turned back to the window and the opaque Houston sky. "You know, there isn't anything wrong with this town that a couple of really good hurricanes couldn't fix." --Peter Gent, THE FRANCHISE From: phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu (Paul Lehman) Subject: religion repost from VNet/Fidonet Echo This is a copy of several messages I captured from the VNet/Fidonet Echo. I have got Michael's permission to repost them, but could not reach Steve (however I am sure he would not mind). ============================================================= From: Michael Matson Sent To: Stephen Anspach Msg #22, Mar-08-93 12:01:58 Subject: Invocations SA> Does anybody have the same problems I do with invocaiotns and piety point acquisition? Well, I've done a lot of things to the religions, but I've never had any trouble at all with the published piety point system. In fact, I thought it was pretty well balanced. Most priests carry between 200 and 400 piety points all the time. My missionary priests piety point numbers vary wildly, of course, as they accumulate numbers between "trips to the field", and then use them up performing "miracles". Yes, cloistered clerics don't gain very many piety points, but if you look at religions the world over, and down through history, the village priest was seldom a miracle worker. So while s/he does not have a very high piety point total, s/he also doesn't possess the faith in the deity needed to make such miracles work. Nor, in my games, do they even know those invocations. You see, IMHO, piety points are nothing more than a measure of religious works. They answer the question: how much time does this character devote to the religion s/he professes to follow, ie, they measure a character's devotion. That's entirely different from *faith*. The village vicar may have tons of devotion, but not have enough faith in the deity to wilt a flower! It takes both to use the powerful miracle working invocations. So, there are two measures. The former is mathematical. The latter is subjective and dependant on player role playing and the GM's handling of the religions. But let's look at the daily PP totals for the two primary kinds of priests: Action Cloistered Missionary ---------------------------- ---------- ---------- Prayer/meditation 0.2 0.2 Confession 1.6 1.6 Daily Mass 0.6 0.6 Service(1) 2.7 2.7 Sacrifice(2) --- 5.5 Quest --- 0.6 ---------- ---------- TOTAL 5.1 11.2 X30 153.0 336.0 NOTES: (1) While it is true that service *can* be cleaning latrines, stables, and other such menial tasks, it also can be private teaching, preparing sermons, counseling, youth work, visiting sick and injured parishioners, and the very non-spiritual task of church administration. The latter are the kinds of services a full fledged priest would perform, the former are the kinds an acolyte would perform. (2) The kind of sacrifice I measured above is monetary, not animal/human, or whatever, primarily because the latter kind of sacrifice has to be made by *both* kinds of priests, but the former doesn't. Cloistered priests normally live off the incomes provided by their parishioners tithes to the church, which also often provides them with housing, be that in the church itself, or as a parsonage. They have no effective incomes. Missionary priests must raise the funds needed not only to support themselves, but to get them where they need to go. The methods used to raise these funds differ, of course, with each religion. The number used above is simply 10% of the average monthly income. The cost of transportation to the missionary sight should also be included but is a one time expense and accumulation of piety, so cannot be figured into the daily allowances. Finally, as it states in the rule book, 90% of all invocations are of the routine type. Praises to the deity, routine blessings of the flock, the partaking of ritual foods, and so on. These make up the bulk of any priests invocations and cost little to nothing in the way of PP. So where the cloistered cleric gains roughly half the PP per day his evangelical counterpart does, the demands on that total are also much fewer, as are the risks. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Stephen Anspach Rec'd To: Michael Matson Msg #17, Mar-11-93 22:59:26 Subject: Invocations In my campaign, one of the major differences between religion and magic is that spells have no driving intelligence (or information) behind them while invocations do. For example, in my campaign, a 'divination-type' spell to 'find the way out' of a cave complex the PCs had become teleported into would not be possible, but an invocation would suffice as they are 'guided' by divine (or semi-divine) information. On the other hand, a spell to detect the closest large living object (probably an animal, assuming they were in the wilderness) would work. This is slightly difficult to convey in a 'short' text post like this without becoming too involved, but basically it boils down to that while informational spells are possible, divination spells are not. Do you get what I'm saying? I'll try and look through my spells and invocations later and dig up a better example if I've left people in the dark. Actually, when I started typing this paragraph, I was going to apply this concept to the faith/devotion issue, but I've already forgotten why! I also have problems with the concept of most 'routine' invocations. To me a 'ritual' to do the above is acceptable, while a 'ritual' to smite your enemies seems a bit awkward - "They're charging! Quick, Grogthar [the mercenary], drop your pack and get me the salt, holy water, a sprig of garlic, and... oh, yes, the Sacred Banana of the Bamlenders!" My 'ritual' invocations require nothing in the way of materials, gestures, or speech - simply concentrating and 'communing' or 'becoming one' with one's faith is as effictive as hopping one one foot, shouting words, and burning incense. What the latter *will* do, however, is convince other followers (usually in a service or large-scale ritual) that something is happening and with many people believing, the attention of divine servant is more easily attracted. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Matson Sent To: Stephen Anspach Msg #24, Mar-14-93 00:20:00 Subject: Invocations SA> do you allow more than one roll/day on SA> certain occasions (e.g., one for an hour of meditation, another for a SA> Soratir day mass, and a third for service for the church?) Of course. Prayer during service isn't counted, but if someone spends an hour in prayer they should have the chance at the PP. If they then go to church that's another pious act. They should have a chance at the PP. If they they perform some kind of service they should have the chance at the PP. Seems to me that's the way the system was designed. ;) SA> This of course is a difficult subject to discuss as in reality, as SA> (at least in my opinion) there really are no miracles (or magic, for that matter). Not at all, at least, not unless you let your own disbelief color your judgment, which from the part I deleted it looks like you've done. Your own personal believe, or lack of it, is irrelevant. You're trying to create living religions that provide the believers with sufficient miracles to sustain the faith, and non-believers ample ammunition to argue their agnosticism. In our own history you have the perfect model. Tens of thousands of people can testify to the miracle workings they've seen Oral Roberts do. Hundreds of thousands can tell you about the religious experience(s) they've had at Billy Grahmn crusades. Who are Billy Grahmn and Oral Roberts? The PC clerics of our world! Fire and brimstone sermons, miraculous healings, raising the dead, converting thousands. And your local preacher is the cloistered cleric who runs his little sewing circle and visits Granny Smith to pray for her rheumatism. SA> dependent. In my campaign, one of the major differences between SA> religion and magic is that spells have no driving intelligence (or SA> information) behind them while invocations do. For example, in my SA> campaign, a 'divination-type' spell to 'find the way out' of a cave SA> complex the PCs had become teleported into would not be possible, Why not? Are the only life forms not on the prime material plane the gods and their minions? I should think that there would be thousands of beings on other planes magicians could use - willingly or not - to gain that kind of information. MM>> (2) The kind of sacrifice I measured above is monetary, not MM>> animal/human, or whatever, primarily because the latter kind MM>> of sacrifice has to be made by *both* kinds of priests, but the former doesn't... SA> Did you accidentally switch former/latter there, or am I not following you? I lost you. The sacrifices required by the various faiths are required regardless of the position the priest holds in the temple. From our own world, the jews were required to sacrifice lambs. This is the "official" sacrifice of the religion. Monetary expenditures, on the other hand, are no less valid, but are likely to only be made by those who must pay their own way. The temple priest doesn't give money to his temple, he draws money from it. The missionary priest, however, must draw funds from outside to buy transportation and to survive while in th mission field. He's giving almost everything he's earned back to his deity. SA> I have problems with the concept of most 'routine' invocations. What do you think the ritual blessing on the holy day is? What do you think the canted prayers are? They're all 'routine' invocations. When the preacher down the street goes to Granny Smith to pray for her rheumatism he's doing something he's done hundreds of times as a preacher. If that isn't 'routine' I don't know what is. But just because it's routine doesn't make it invalid or less powerful. SA> me a 'ritual' to do the above is acceptable, while a 'ritual' to smite SA> your enemies seems a bit awkward - "They're charging! Quick, Grogthar SA> [the mercenary], drop your pack and get me the salt, holy water, a SA> sprig of garlic, and... oh, yes, the Sacred Banana of the Bamlenders!" SA> My 'ritual' invocations require nothing in the way of materials, SA> gestures, or speech - simply concentrating and 'communing' or SA> 'becoming one' with one's faith is as effictive as hopping one one SA> foot, shouting words, and burning incense. In other words, you've reduced the concept to a duplicate of the combat spells provided for priests in the AD&D Player's Handbook. I have never had a problem with priests in the situation you describe above because no priest in my game would ever expect to be able to cast his or her ritual fireball to smite his enemies and glorify his god. With the exception of the occasional call for divine aid, such pyrotechnics are the purview of the magic types. The interference of a divine being is normally so vague as to be imperceptible. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Michael Matson Sent To: Stephen Anspach Msg #35, Mar-16-93 09:02:16 Subject: Invocations stuff deleted for brevity MM>> The interference of a divine being is normally so vague as to be imperceptible. SA> I try to stick by this as closely as possible, especially in regards to calls for direct aid. IMHO, far more dangerous and unbalancing (game mechanic wise) than direct aid, which is always under your thumb, are invocations. Once permission is given for a new invocation to be used by a PC's character, it's in the game! Since the presumption made for invocations is that they are kind of like temporarily plugging into the divine electric company, they can be used pretty much at will. Also, since they are like spells, the temptation is to make them the divine equivalent of magic spells: spectacular, obvious, and having specific results. It is important, it seems to me - critically important - to ask some questions: o Would this invocation have changed history (religious or temporal) were is around 50, 100, or 200 years ago? o Would this invocation resolve theological disputes in the church? o Would this invocation challenge the faith of a believer of another main stream religion? o Would this invocation force agnostics or atheists to acknowledge the existence of the deity or some higher power? If you're at all interested in keeping the religions of Harn, and the balance created, fairly intact, answering yes to any of these questions should put the suggested invocation in serious jeopardy, and answering yes to more than one should kill it outright. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Stephen Anspach Rec'd To: Michael Matson Msg #41, Mar-18-93 17:43:28 Subject: Invocations SA> I'm not too generous when it comes to religious institutions SA> supporting PC priests, but then again, my priests generally SA> wander far from their 'home' temples (and orders, even) and are basically autonomous. MM> Presactly. And since they're autonomous they must MM> finance themselves. I'd allow piety points for a MM> portion of the funds so raised and then USED to support MM> the missionary work if your having trouble with these MM> priests being able to store up enough PP to perform the needed "miracles". Interesting idea. I'll toy with this and see how it works for me. MM> Also, since they are like spells, the temptation is MM> to make them the divine equivalent of magic spells: MM> spectacular, obvious, and having specific results. It MM> is important, it seems to me - critically important - to ask some questions: This is basically the same practice I use with magic. For instance, there are *no* fly, teleport, or levitate spells in my campaign - as far as the PCs know, it can't be done. I feel that if such a spell were in 'general' circulation (not all Shek-P'var are nice, friendly people) that it would seriously unbalance the way the world was. Granted, the Shek-P'var generally do not meddle seriously in the lives of the Kvikir, but one renegade mage armed with one of these spells could upset the whole balance of Harn. So what you're saying in regards to your invocations is that virtually none of them have any tangible effects at all? I kinda like this idea, but it would require some reworking of things. Have you ever given any thought to having no specific invocations or intervention, and just simply asking the cleric "well, what exactly are you asking for?" and deducting an appropriate number of points? The effects could also be quite subtle this way; since the priest will probably never ask for the exact same thing twice, the effects can be quite varied and nobody could ever 'test' the success. I've thought about applying this to spells as well, but it's a bit more difficult. Also, I've considered a number of times keeping PPs secret from PCs - your thoughts? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Michael Matson Sent To: Stephen Anspach Msg #42, Mar-20-93 15:53:34 Subject: Invocations SA> So what you're saying in regards to your invocations is that virtually none of them have SA> any tangible effects at all? No, although you could certainly interpret the questions I posed to do just that. But raising the dead is an allowable invocation in my game, and reviving a completely dead (as opposed to mostly dead ) body is a pretty tangible effect. The reason I allow is because of the restrictions built into the invocation - well, primarily, anyway. There's also the minor fact that the number of invocations I give a priest and their specific type is entirely dependant on the priest his or her self and his or her job. But look at the restrictions built into the "Revivification" ritual. o An extremely difficult ceremony taking at least twelve hours. o Uses expensive ritual items such as incense, slaves, holy water, etc. o Finally, only one attempt may be made meaning if it's not in the best interests of the game, plot line, or is just out of character for the deity to have this dead puke brought back to life, the GM only has to say "no" (by force failing the role) once. The most obvious apparent violations are in the areas faith and belief challenges. But look at what's involved? How many agnostics are going to stand around for twelve hours? and what believer of another religion is going to be present at such a long, convoluted ceremony of another religion. For that matter, what non-believer is going to be present. This miracle *will* have an effect on a select few, but to the world at large, it will be written of just as the Romans did during biblical times, just as the miracles reported today are written off by the vast majority of the public, complete with "expert" testimony from psychologists and medical doctors explaining why the believers believed or the patient was healed of terminal cancer. The only place you ever hear about miracles is in the supermarket tabloids. Are they for real? Or are they not? Do you believe the farmer from the village? Or do you not? SA> Have you ever given any thought to having no specific invocations or SA> intervention, and just simply asking the cleric "well, what exactly are you asking for?" No, the invocations serve a purpose by giving the religions forms to follow, and the PC priests I've had around have gotten as much pleasure out of developing their religions and the invocations that go with as Shek-Pvar players seem to get out of researching and writing spells. Besides, a ritual call for direct aid isn't limited in use to earth shattering theatrics. A priest may simply need a question answered. And in my games, at times, the right answer to the problem, in the eyes of the deity, is to use the ritual call to get an answer. Needless to say, I don't very often simply role the dice against the intervention table. If this cleric has been doing "mighty works" for his/her deity, and is still "in step" with the god's grand plan, it is only natural that the cleric is going to need direct contact with the deity, and will need to be be plugged into a larger power source than even the most spectacular invocations can provide. In fact, the more risky and trying the priest's mission is, the more likely it is s/he will have visitations from the god. They will be private, one on one (no witnesses), and serve a no more useful purpose than as a reward. "You done good, son, I'm here to tell you that in person." Priests dumb enough to try and take advantage of that will likely not be visited by the deity again, however. But if you're portraying the deities right, and if you have good role players in your game, you won't have to worry about it. Most will be so awe struck by the presence of their god they won't even be thinking about how much information they could possibly pump the deity for. SA> Also, I've considered a number of times keeping PPs secret from PCs - your thoughts? Never thought about it, but since PPs are nothing more than a measure of works I don't see the point. Again, I separate between PPs and faith. PPs are like the car's engine. Anyone with a basic understanding of auto mechanics can go out and work on the engine. The more they know the more they can do to fix what's wrong. In religious terms, the engine is the works, the knowledge of mechanics and cars equates to the ritual ML, the knowledge of the holy writings, church ritual, etc etc. But the motor won't run without gas. No matter how much study you do, no matter long you work on that motor, it won't run without gasoline. You have to go to the gas station and have it pumped into the tank for a price. Likewise, faith is bestowed - at least partially - and it has a price, usually requires some kind of personal sacrifice. True faith will get the engine built by works running, and once you're going to have to go someplace. If you don't, if you let your faith sit idle, you'll lose it; and then, like the motor that's left sitting, the gas goes bad and so does the motor. ============================================================ end of quoting ---------- phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu [He] turned back to the window and the opaque Houston sky. "You know, there isn't anything wrong with this town that a couple of really good hurricanes couldn't fix." --Peter Gent, THE FRANCHISE From: pcrxs@valinor.giss.nasa.gov (R.B. Schmunk) Subject: Spells -> archive Some of you may remember the HarnMaster spell list which I was maintaining and which I made available last year. I have since made some modifications, including the addition of perhaps a half dozen spells for a total of 65. The new file has been posted to the archive on sunbane.engrg.uwo.ca (the /pub/harn directory), and will hopefully be available by anonymous ftp within a few days. Note: This file is an MS Word document for the Macintosh, and has been stuffed and Binhexed. I no longer have the ASCII translation of the file which was posted to this mailing list year and do not feel like doing the work to create a new one. If someone else would like to do an ASCII translation, have at it. rbs -- R.B. Schmunk Email: pcrxs@valinor.giss.nasa.gov Smail: NASA/Goddard Institute, 2880 Broadway, New York, NY 10025 USA Vox: 212-678-5637 ============================================================================== From: phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu (Paul Lehman) Subject: ftp archive I've put a bunch of things in the ftp archive today (Sunday 10/3/93) and have a few more things I could put if the list shows interest. They are complete infeudation lists for Kaldor and Kanday in Excel 4.0 format and Word 4.0 lists of the hundreds in Kaldor and Kanday. Other formats are possible. Speak up if you are interested (include format and compression preferences). ---------- phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu The only marital problem that excessive gaming can cause can be easily solved by purchasing a second computer. From: phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu (Paul Lehman) Subject: new book I have a reference that the Harn list may be interested in. It is _Stadtluft, Hirsebrei und Bettelmoench, Die Stadt um 1300_ edited by the Landesdenkmalamt Baden-Wuerttemberg und der Stadt Zuerich, publisher Konrad Theiss Verlag in Stuttgart (ISBN 3-8062-1059-4). It is a massive volume that comprises an expanded version of the text and illustrations of a cooperative museum tour between the state archaeological authorities of southwestern Germany and the city of Zurich. As such is represents the latest thought in medieval archaeology and (non-intellectual) history of southern German cities around AD 1300. Obviously you have to read German to make use of the text, but the whole volume is lavishously illustrated (in color) and the emphasis is on everyday life and reconstruction of many of the material details. There are even several drawings of urban (and suburban) life that look just like the stuff that Hotz does for various Harnic cities. I plan to use them as models for Trierzi cities. Other sections cover various crafts including construction. If I receive a few requests I could provide the table of contents. ---------- phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu The only marital problem that excessive gaming can cause can be easily solved by purchasing a second computer. From: pcrxs@valinor.giss.nasa.gov (R.B. Schmunk) Subject: EH index Ever been reading an Encyclopedia Article and encountered the name or a person or place that sounds familiar but you can't remember why? That used to happen to me a lot, so when I was unemployed last spring I started putting together an index to the Encyclopedia Harnica articles. I never finished the project, and what with having a real job now, I doubt I ever will. Nevertheless, I figure some of you out there may want to take advantage of what I did get done, and if you have a Macintosh you can. I have just submitted a file called "EHindex.sea.hqx" to the Harnic archive on sunbane (sunbane.engrg.uwo.ca /pub/harn). I'll see what I can do about putting together an ASCII version, but it may be a while before I get aorund to it. rbs -- R.B. Schmunk Email: pcrxs@valinor.giss.nasa.gov Smail: NASA/Goddard Institute, 2880 Broadway, New York, NY 10025 USA Vox: 212-678-5637 From: Magnus Lycka Subject: Re: EH index I saw that there is a number of files in the macstuff directory on sunbane now. Perhaps someone could make a README file for those things. I would also appreciate very much if the files were made available in a more "PC friendly" format. Although the MS Word files for mac can be read into the Windows version, and there is a PC version of BINHEX too, I don't know how to unstuff stuffed files (I think some of the files are stuffed) on my PC. JML -- Name .............: Magnus Lycka, MSc, Design Engineer | All opinions Office Address ...: Saab Ericsson Space AB | expressed here S-405 15 GOTEBORG,SWEDEN | are my own. Office Phone .....: int+46 31 354229 | Fax ..............: int+46 31 359520 | Email ............: Magnus_Lycka@space.combitech.se | ============================================================================= From: Magnus Lycka Subject: Re: EH index I just downloaded the macstuff files at sunbane to my PC. I can report to all PC users out there that it's fairly easy to get the Macintosh Word-files into Word for Windows. Just hex2bin the files and try to open them with Word. It recognizes them as Word 5.0 for Mac files and translates them with at least most things working. (I have a slight problem with paper sizes (A4).) If you don't have BINHEX for PC, I can get you a PD version. I don't know what to do with the .SIT and .SEA files or the MASSCOMB file though... JML -- Name .............: Magnus Lycka, MSc, Design Engineer | All opinions Office Address ...: Saab Ericsson Space AB | expressed here S-405 15 GOTEBORG,SWEDEN | are my own. Office Phone .....: int+46 31 354229 | Fax ..............: int+46 31 359520 | Email ............: Magnus_Lycka@space.combitech.se | From: Greg Hara Subject: Columbia Games I have a friend who is writing a module for Harn. Does anyone know if Columbia purchases modules and how can my friend contact them to discuss terms? ANY HELP is appreciated. Greg [This seemed more directed toward J.D. Frazer, the member of our group who is actually a part of Columbia Games, but I thought everyone might want to hear any responses, or maybe offer their $.02 worth. :-) -Eric] From: pcrxs@valinor.giss.nasa.gov (R.B. Schmunk) Subject: Re: EH index Magnus Lycka writes: >I just downloaded the macstuff files at sunbane to my PC. > >I can report to all PC users out there that it's fairly easy to get the >Macintosh Word-files into Word for Windows. Just hex2bin the files and try to >open them with Word. It recognizes them as Word 5.0 for Mac files and >translates them with at least most things working. (I have a slight problem >with paper sizes (A4).) If you don't have BINHEX for PC, I can get you a PD >version. I don't know what to do with the .SIT and .SEA files or the MASSCOMB >file though... I'll re-upload the netspell and EHindex files to sunbane in an un-stuffed format which you PC (gag!) users can read. I originally stuffed them so they'd take up less disk space. A warning, though, netspell contains some PICTs of spell icons which I expect will not translate. Regarding the masscomb file, that's one of Paul Lehman's Mac Excel files. I've no clue whether Excel for Win can open it or not, but you can always give it a try. rbs -- R.B. Schmunk Email: pcrxs@valinor.giss.nasa.gov Smail: NASA/Goddard Institute, 2880 Broadway, New York, NY 10025 USA Vox: 212-678-5637 From: pcrxs@valinor.giss.nasa.gov (R.B. Schmunk) Subject: Re: Columbia Games Greg Hara writes >I have a friend who is writing a module for Harn. Does anyone know >if Columbia purchases modules and how can my friend contact them to >discuss terms? ANY HELP is appreciated. >From the CG Writer's Guidelines/1992: --- Columbia Games, Inc. Suite 102, 283 East 11th Ave. Vancouver, V5T 2C4, Canada (604) 873-6591 Columbia Games publishes a series of sourcebooks and adventure modules detailing HarnWorld, and a compatible role-playing system called HarnMaster. Both are medieval fantasy genre. This does not mean we would never consider an outstanding creation in another genre, such as Science Fiction, but it would be a tough sell. The following is a summary of our current needs. SOURCEBOOKS These must be fully compatible with all cultural details outlined in our publication HarnWorld. But it's a big place. There is lots of opportunity for original creation within the cultrual framework we have provided, especially on the continent of Lythia where little has been published. Nothing will be accepted that conflicts with already published materials, even if you do have a better idea, and even if we agree with you. Most of our publications to date have been sourcebooks, namely expansions and details on kingdoms, castles, adventure sites, etc. Sourcebooks must be rule system generic. ADVENTURE MODULES We have published very few adventure modules. Generally, our view has been that we provide the stage, and the gamemaster writed the play. But we have published a few adventures of outstanding merit and will continue to do so. They have to be compatible with both HarnWorld and HarnMaster. We prefer low magic adventures, similar in nature and size to our 100 Bushels of Rye. HARNLORE A quarterly publication dealing with HarnWorld. This is a good bet for beginning writers in that pieces can be short (as little as 1500 words) and we tend to be a bit less fussy about details. FICTION We have not (as yet) published any fiction other than a short story that appeared in HarnLore 1. It's something we will consider, but not a priority. SUBMISSION STUFF Assuming that you have read some/most of our publications, send along an outline of a proposed project or two and we will steer you in a direction that is likely to get you a landfall. (Notice we didn't say windfall.) Address queries to "Editorial Dept.". Minimum final submission (HarnLore excepted) is 20,000 words (or equivalent text and maps/art). This is our preferred size for adventure modules. All (final) submissions must be made in electronic (computer) form, either in ASCII text (without formatting) or any file formats readable by MicroSoft Word for Windows or MicroSoft Word for the Mac. Art and maps should be submitted on paper unless you use the Mac. MONEY STUFF Let's be honest. Writing in this business is not likely to make you rich, but you can earn decent pocket money while you plot the great, epic, best-selling novel we all want to write. We offer the collowing compensation: 1. Five (5) cents per (published) word. Maps nad art within a text article are negotiable, but you may assume roughly $2.00 per column inch (based on a column 3.25" wide). Generally, we have to redo maps and art which means you get only half the normal fee. Payments are made in US dollars. 2. The above applies to a first production run of 5,000 copies. Each additional reprinting of 5000 earns you a bonus of 50% of the initial payment. A lesser reprinting (2500 is common) earns half the stated bonus. 3. Payment is made as follows. Fifty percent (50%) on acceptance, and the balance on publication or within six months of acceptance (whichever comes sooner). 4. HarnLore payments are half of the above, but we throw in a free one- year subscription for any submission 5000 words (or more). --- If you're wondering how I obtained this, I submitted an adventure plot to Columbia last December. I heard back from Tom D. at the end of January, and the Writer's Guidelines were include with his note. He was generally favorable to my idea, with one major exception, that I had created what could be considered a prominent adventure site at a location that was not marked an "interesting" location on one of the regional maps. I'm still working on the adventure (starting two new jobs and moving from Houston to New York has slowed me down a bit) and will resubmit it hopefully within another month. I have toned down the importance of my adventure site and also added comments to the introduction to the effect that it could be shifted to another location without much difficulty, thus making a bit of a generic site. I'm hoping Tom D. will go for that. But regarding any of the above release, presumably JD can tell us if any of it has changed since the 1992 dating. rbs -- R.B. Schmunk Email: pcrxs@valinor.giss.nasa.gov Smail: NASA/Goddard Institute, 2880 Broadway, New York, NY 10025 USA Vox: 212-678-5637 From: Harry Butler Subject: Another useful book for Trierzon In the spirit of Paul Lehman's recent contribution to the list, I thought I'd let you all know about a book just reviewed in the Bryn Mawr Medieval Review: James Bromwich, _The Roman Remains of Southern France_. New York and London: Routledge, 1993. The review suggests that this book might have useful plans and descriptions for incorporating Azeryani remains into Trierzi cities. I haven't seen it yet, but I certainly plan to give it a look. Another book I've found useful is _The Churches of the Crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem_ (I think that's the exact title), in multiple volumes, which includes detailed and useful plans (grottos under churches, etc.) and site descriptions; I've already included some of these in my Harn campaign. I hope these are useful. Harry Butler hgb1@troi.cc.rochester.edu From: Magnus Lycka Subject: Re: EH index + r.g.f.m > From: pcrxs@valinor.giss.nasa.gov (R.B. Schmunk) > Subject: Re: EH index > > I'll re-upload the netspell and EHindex files to sunbane in an un-stuffed > format which you PC (gag!) users can read. I originally stuffed them so [PC (gag!)] Ok, Ok, company policy... not much to do... > they'd take up less disk space. A warning, though, netspell contains > some PICTs of spell icons which I expect will not translate. Thanks Rob. Paul Lehman had put some files of yours in binhexed zip-format, and that worked well. As I thus assume that zip exists on Mac, it seems that that is a compression format that is available on most platforms. (At least mac, pc & unix). > > Regarding the masscomb file, that's one of Paul Lehman's Mac Excel files. > I've no clue whether Excel for Win can open it or not, but you can > always give it a try. Excel for Windows 4.0 read the MASSCOMB file without any problem. > Subject number two: Harn discussions on rec.games.frp.misc I've noted that there has been a lot of discussions about the Harn environment and Harnmaster in the usenet group rec.games.frp.misc for some time now. In all people seem very positive (exept for the capacity of CG (volumewise) of course). With exception of Petri Heiramo and myself, I haven't seen any names that I recognice from this list, but there are quite a few netters that have gone into the discussion, both with questions and with praise to Harn. I've made some reference to this list (and someone else did also) and to the ftp server at sunbane.engrg.uwo.ca. I hope this will lead to an increased activity on the list. BTW, the only bad thing people have said about Harnmaster (except about details such as psionics) is that it is too low power level, and to me that's more like a pro than a con... I just took the liberty to write a post to advertise about this mailing list on r.g.f.m. I hope that won't cause to much work for Eric... JML -- Name .............: Magnus Lycka, MSc, Design Engineer | All opinions Office Address ...: Saab Ericsson Space AB | expressed here S-405 15 GOTEBORG,SWEDEN | are my own. Office Phone .....: int+46 31 354229 | Fax ..............: int+46 31 359520 | Email ............: Magnus_Lycka@space.combitech.se | From: ianmc@sybase.com (Ian McCreery) Subject: A newcomer... hello everyone - I am new to this mailing list, so I apologize for this general question that, I'm sure, has been addressed MANY times... I am considering using Harn for a campaign, but I am wondering what game systems people are using (have used) with Harn. I would assume Harnmaster is the majority, but I have never played this system. I have been considering Rolemaster, but I am open to suggestions. Thanks, Ian McCreery ianmc@sybase.com From: Petri Heiramo Subject: Re: A newcomer... > hello everyone - Hello Ian > > I am new to this mailing list, so I apologize for this general question > that, I'm sure, has been addressed MANY times... Welcome. > > I am considering using Harn for a campaign, but I am wondering what game > systems people are using (have used) with Harn. I would assume Harnmaster > is the majority, but I have never played this system. I have been > considering Rolemaster, but I am open to suggestions. > > Thanks, > Ian McCreery > ianmc@sybase.com Hmm... I'm not sure this is a very common question since HM IS in majority. However, I've played Harn on GURPS, but I cannot say how it has worked rulewise, since our GM has handled the rule interface without us having to bother with them (very luckily ;). I see no reason why you could not run HWorld on RM, other than the reason I've given in my posts on rec.games.frp.misc (that RM doesn't fit well for low power (and especially so for ROCK BOTTOM power ;) gaming). However, considering the suitability of HM rules to Harn, I would strongly recommend you to at least read the HM through. HM is a very good system for low power campaigning (not to mention the unmentioned relation between HM and the non-rules-specific sourcebooks ;). What about you others here? What do you use? And if your system isn't HM, how has it suited to Harn? Has anyone played a no-rules game on Harn? Jours, Petri [Ed. Note: I'm gluing a couple VERY short messages from people on the mailing list, just so the rest of you don't have to sort through 2 copies or the mail header that accompanies each message. -Eric] From: sharons@juliet.ll.mit.edu ( Sharon Stanfill ) Subject: Re: A newcomer... I've both GMed and run in Harn using GURPS. It seems to work quite well. Sharon sharons@juliet.ll.mit.edu ============================================================================= From: Greg Hines Subject: Product Listing? Greetings, I am just getting back into Harn after 3 or 4 years and I wondered if someone has a complete product list, including Out-of-Print stuff so I can inventory my collection and see what I need to buy. Also, Is the 2nd ed Harn module just a combo of the first ed w/ Lythia (i.e if I have those do I "need" 2nd ed? Thanks, Greg Hines From: phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu (Paul Lehman) Subject: Re: EH index + r.g.f.m >From: Magnus Lycka ... >I just took the liberty to write a post to advertise about this mailing list >on r.g.f.m. I hope that won't cause to much work for Eric... Actually I hope it does cause *some* work for Eric and more activity on the list. I'm glad you posted that advert. From comments I read it seemed there are still lots of people out there who don't know about Harn or the mailing list or the archive. Spread the word! Conspicuously absent was the official Columbia Games representative. Now, I don't mind promoting Harn whenever and whereever, but some of those questions cried out for an "official response." ---------- phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu "Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life." Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41 From: Naval.Ravikant@Dartmouth.EDU (Naval Ravikant) Subject: Re: A newcomer... --- Petri Heiramo wrote: HWorld on RM, other than the reason I've given in my posts on rec.games.frp.misc (that RM doesn't fit well for low power (and especially so for ROCK BOTTOM power ;) gaming). However, considering the suitability of HM rules to Harn, I would strongly recommend you to at least read the HM through. HM is a very good system for low power campaigning (not to mention the unmentioned relation between HM and the non-rules-specific sourcebooks ;). What about you others here? What do you use? And if your system isn't HM, how has it suited to Harn? Has anyone played a no-rules game on Harn? --- end of quoted material --- Hi there. I'm new to this list, and I must say that I'm just switching to Harn from RM, precisely because the rules for RM are antithetical to low-powered campaigns. Once I saw the extensive 125th level spell section in Rolemaster Companion VI, I knew it was time to look for another system. I liked RM's combat system originally, but eventually began to hate the limitations (Ie., lack of aiming rules). The spell system is, of course, atrocious, full of one liner spell descriptions and multiple versions of the same spell. Although I haven't run a Harn game yet, and my experience with it is practically nil, I sincerely hope that it is not easily possible to run a Harn campaign using RM rules. - Naval Naval.Ravikant@Dartmouth.edu Darkman@coos.dartmouth.edu Darkman@everest.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: Columbia Games From: a481@mindlink.bc.ca (J.D. Frazer) > Eric T. Parson writes: > From: Greg Hara > Subject: Columbia Games > > I have a friend who is writing a module for Harn. Does anyone know if > Columbia purchases modules and how can my friend contact them to discuss > terms? ANY HELP is appreciated. > > Greg > > [This seemed more directed toward J.D. Frazer, the member of our group > who is actually a part of Columbia Games, but I thought everyone might > want to hear any responses, or maybe offer their $.02 worth. :-) > -Eric] My apologies to the members of the list for my slow response. My mailbox has been deluged for the last several weeks, and it's taken me this long to get to your letters. Yes, CG is happy to look at modules written by freelancers. Our payment rates are from $20 to $40 per page, depending on how much editing we have to do (no, make that *I* have to do...I just remembered that Tom has shifted his attention to what he should be doing -- running the company). If you have an idea you'd like to bounce off me, send me a query letter with some details. I'll analyze it and send you my thoughts. Do the members of the list feel it would be useful to have a copy of writers' guidelines posted? -- J.D. Frazer, a481@mindlink.bc.ca | Columbia Games Internet Representative Vancouver, B.C., Canada | Editor of Harnlore [Ed. Note: Rather than post 40 "me too!" notes, let's just say that I think all of us would like to see the Writers Guidelines. The ball's in your court J.D. :-) -Eric] From: Mark Hazen Subject: Re: Columbia Games In reference to writers guidelines for Columbia Games. I would be interested in seeing them! mark ============================================================================= From: sharons@juliet.ll.mit.edu ( Sharon Stanfill ) Subject: Re: Columbia Games I'd definitely like to see a copy of the Harn writers' guidelines. Sharon Stanfill sharons@juliet.ll.mit.edu From: Mark Hazen Subject: Re: A newcomer... In response to both "Darkman (naval ravikant) and Petri Heiramo I have run the HarnWorld for about 8 years using variants of RuneQuest rule systems. I have not played RoleMaster having started in AS&D and gone straight to what my group calls HarnQuest. We looked at the HarnMaster rules at one point but thought that the combat was a bit more complex then we wanted to deal with. In a sense the combat from Runequest is half way between AD&D's no control or reaction state and the HarnWorld's set up. This comprimise has worked well for our group of get-together-once-a-week-and-eat-and-drink players. We started using the RuneQuest magic but found the spirit magic was not playing that well in Harn, the sorcerol not at all, and the Divine magic was not worth a character dealing in it. We have since (with the advent of spell lists from HW) switched the sorcerol completely to HW and are in the midst of hybriding spirit magic and psionics. Divine magic is also being converted as we now have two brave souls who are playing priests and a paladin of Larani (not to be confused with those poor souls who are attempting genocide on the Solori). HW is touted as being magic poor, and in the sense of AD&D and RM I think it is, but when characters get into developing their own spells and start to think of the ramifications of personal spell development etc. I actually think that it is far less limiting then the other systems. Have you ever wanted to have your own transmogrifier? Well, then research it and presto chango. I play Divine magic fairly fast and loose. The god may or may not grant a priest his prayer, and it may not depend on his amount of piety (if it is to the benefit of the God's interests) Some Gods (Save Knor for example are fairly snotty about granting spells if the priest could deal with the situation using his own abilities. In general, priests should have access to some pretty powerful stuff but be a bit unsure of if they will actually work so that they make sure that what they are doing is in the interests of thier God. There will of course be some low level things that will work most of the time. I assume that there are demi-god type switchboard operators to handle most of the requests without going through the Divine intrevention tables. I would be interested in what other people have been doing. Mark Hazen Ps. I have just started through the archive of the list so maybe these ideas have already been looked at. From: ianmc@sybase.com (Ian McCreery) Subject: I'm Convinced Hello All- You (in addition to the ongoing discussions on rec.frp...) have convinced me to buy the Harnmaster rules and give them a look. I guess I still had a couple of questions though, since I won't be able to pick up the product for a few days... I) Non-humans: are there rules pertaining to playing non-humans (in particularly, the elves & dwarves of Harn...) ? II) Character Devl'pmt: it sounds like this is pretty extensive (as far as background, etc.) -- could someone give me a brief overview of how it works? To me, this is the most interesting part of a game. III) Combat: It hasn't been real clear -- combat sounds 'strategic', etc., but are there still random factors involved...?? Thanks for any insights... Ian From: mak@ticipa.works.ti.com (Michael Kilgore) Subject: Re: A newcomer... >From: Mark Hazen > >[about using RuneQuest for Harn, particularly RQ combat as middle > ground between AD&D and HM, and moving toward replacing RQ magic > by HM magic] This sounds very interesting, since I have intended to run Harn with RQ 3 rules, excepting magic. In devising the RQ variants you mentioned, did you come across any useful general lessons in non-magic areas? I'm thinking in particular of how well the lethality of combat in RQ rules works with Harn. From what I have gleaned here and in rec.games.frp.misc, combat in HM rules is comparable; but what I mean here is how well Harn itself (the assumed peoples, technology, etc.) works with RQ. I suppose it might be difficult to separate Harn the environment from HM the rules when it comes to statistics about dangerousness of weapons or beings. Perhaps I should ask whether you have found a few general rules of thumb for relating HM assumptions and statistics to RQ? Many thanks for any further words of wisdom you can offer. -- Michael Kilgore Texas Instruments, Inc. (214) 917-2219 mak@works.ti.com From: Naval.Ravikant@Dartmouth.EDU (Naval Ravikant) Subject: Edition Anyone know the most recent edition of Harnmaster out? Is it up to the second edition yet? Thanks, - N. From: Magnus Lycka Subject: Columbian Timeschedules... The things Mr Frazer has said about HarnLore really becoming quarterly etc. sounded very promising. It made wonder if he would have an effect on the rest of the Harn-related products too. Thus I'm wondering if someone has heard more about HarnPlayer that was to be released in September, and Nasty, Brutish & Short which is scheduled for this month. JML -- Name .............: Magnus Lycka, MSc, Design Engineer | All opinions Office Address ...: Saab Ericsson Space AB | expressed here S-405 15 GOTEBORG,SWEDEN | are my own. Office Phone .....: int+46 31 354229 | Fax ..............: int+46 31 359520 | Email ............: Magnus_Lycka@space.combitech.se | From: lees@snoopy.asf.com (Lee Short) Subject: Harn stuff In response to those people who use Harn with other rules, I'm just the opposite -- I use(d) Harnmaster with another world (my own). Here's why: I think of medieval people (generally) as hopelessly narrow-minded and intolerant. I don't want to GM a world full of people like this. My own world has significant bits of the *ancient* world outlook in it (ie, true polythiesm -- not multi-monothiesm, like Harn -- to wit, it is quite common for a person to pay reverence to more than one god -- indeed it is quite rare for a person to pay reverence to only a single diety). Among the (few) changes I have made to Harnmaster, was a change to the magic system, involving Bonus Effects. My original motivation for doing so was so that I could hide the PCs' spell MLs from them (actually, I hide everything from the players...rules and all -- just give them a *description* of their character, and tell them what happens after they tell me what they try to do). Obviously, this didn't work too well with the "ML 81+ blah de blah" system, so I instead simply decided that each bonus effect would have an EML penalty of its minimum ML over 4. This also alleviates the "sudden jump in development" syndrome. Comments? Lee From: Mark Hazen Subject: RQ in Harn >From: mak@ticipa.works.ti.com (Michael Kilgore) >>[about using RuneQuest for Harn, particularly RQ combat as middle >> ground between AD&D and HM, and moving toward replacing RQ magic >> by HM magic] >This sounds very interesting, since I have intended to run Harn with RQ 3 >rules, excepting magic. In devising the RQ variants you mentioned, did you >come across any useful general lessons in non-magic areas? In general we use the straight (if you can call RQ straight forward actually it is rather vague and disjointed in many places) RQ manual for combat and had originally used the RQ magic as well. But found the magic system essientially stunk, with the possible exception of Spirit Magic which I am still partial to for tribal nations. (I just read a discussion in Harn2 digest about shaman and think that RQ spirit magic is a better solution, but should generally stay NPC). On non-magic areas the skill base systems work extremely well. The hit locations and damage taken are less complex. This can cause problems of interpretation of damage and healing when dealing with HM. As GM I use the common sense rule (does it make sense or violate my sense of the world). >From what I have read lately it seems to me that the Dodge skill and martial arts may be a bit easier to use. The main problem with RQ is finding the rules in the manual and getting a clear sense of what is meant. >I'm thinking in particular of how well the lethality of combat in RQ rules >works with Harn. From what I have gleaned here and in rec.games.frp.misc, >combat in HM rules is comparable; but what I mean here is how well Harn >itself (the assumed peoples, technology, etc.) works with RQ. My feeling is that god pantheons aside Harn works far better with RQ than any of the RQ worlds I have ever browsed through in the local gaming stores. But then I have only allowed one non-human player in my campaign and would allow another only under great duress. I find that they are just too hard for people to play well, culture, etc. And their beginning capabilities are out of whack with other beginning characters. Perhaps if someone were starting a new character and joining an experienced group?? Enough said, there will be no duck adventurers in my Harn! >I suppose it might be difficult to separate Harn the environment from HM >the rules when it comes to statistics about dangerousness of weapons or >beings. Perhaps I should ask whether you have found a few general rules of >thumb for relating HM assumptions and statistics to RQ? The main thing that I have added is a will characteristic. This gives a much better stat to roll against then power for such things as being taunted while drunk and many other situations. As well as being the stat that comes up the most in saving vs HM spells. Generally, I have found it easy to separate Harn from HM (as it was designed to be so, well done Columbia), with the exception of the wierd assortment of Gods (like the lack of a God of Oceans in the civilized world) and magic system. Weapons etc. you just look up in RQ for the equivalent. And they are close, although RQ does not have blunt, point, edge etc. Again there is little difficulty so long as common sense is used. Besides I never tell players how much damage a monster can do, only how much damage the characters suffer. They have had beings that took massive damage and then ran away bleeding gore all over. And others that seemed to take no damage at all until they collapsed Have fun, Harn is the best world for what ever gaming system you want to use. Pick the gaming system that fits your group's level of complexity tolerance and fill your boots. From: mizer@expert.cc.purdue.edu (Mizer) Subject: Columbia mag. Ok .. this is just a rumor I have heard from some friends of mine that play HM a lot more that I do ... but here it is .. It seems that a group of people are going to offer to buy the Magazine rights I dont know the details but this is what I heard .. can anyone confirm this or not .. Im talking about the quarterley mag. that is supposto come out but hasn't been quite on time lateley (past couple years). anything that anyone has heard on this would greatley be appreciated. later Mizer From: THE_DA-DA_DUMMY Subject: Re: A newcomer... As to the RM system, I used it to pilage extensively when designing my own system (Constantly being revised, but mostly a cross between harnmaster, rolemaster, Aftermath and a good chunk of my own stuff). I use my own magic system as I haven't been satisfied with anybody else's. It's a skill and point based system, so personal magic afinity is important, but you need to practice alot. It follows the pvaric principles (on Harn), with some small schools of alternative theories here and there. -Duncan From: phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu (Paul Lehman) Subject: Re: Harn stuff > My own world has significant bits of the *ancient* >world outlook in it (ie, true polythiesm -- not multi-monothiesm, like >Harn -- to wit, it is quite common for a person to pay reverence to >more than one god -- indeed it is quite rare for a person to pay >reverence to only a single diety). A very good point, and one not made often enough. Careful reading of some of the earliest stuff (Gods of Harn, etc.) did not suggest the monotheism that has developed, although I would only characterize it as weakly polytheistic. Seems intolerance knows no bounds, either real or fantasy. ---------- phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu "Sunday's horoscope is note worthy because of its strange, sudden and wholly unpredictable and inexplicable occurrences, affecting all phases of life." Your Horoscope" L.A. Evening Herald Express, Sat, 12/06/41 From: mdabbott@aol.com Subject: RQ & Harn I too have used RQ with Harn and found that it works pretty well. The RQ magic systems don't really have the appropriate flavor for most of Harn but the skill and combat mechanics work well. They are, afterall, very similar in many ways. The biggest change, for me, was the healing systems. HM relies on natural healing and physicians for a large part of recovery after battle. Damage is described quite graphically. RQ abstracts things more and the healing is very simplistic. It's pretty much assumed that you will be healed with magic, not be forced to recover over time. Right now I'm GMing (or rather, would if I could find any players since I've moved) a mixture of RQ, HM, and some homegrown stuff. The basis is RQ but I've cobbled bits of HM that I like. Incidentally, I've found that I can switch back and forth between RQ combat and HM combat with minimal difficulty. Mark Abbott