From: pcrxs@nasagiss.giss.nasa.gov (R.B. Schmunk) Subject: Re: Spells, Calendars, and Gods Harry Butler writes: > 1. In my campaign I have a Jmorvi Shek-Pvar currently working on a >spell to open mechanical metal locks (not enchanted locks); the spell would >open locks of a complexity level = SI. I'm not sure about assigning a level >to this. 3rd seems about right to me, but I'd welcome any other suggestions I personally think that CL III sounds a bit high for such a spell, but it would also depend on the casting time involved. If the player/mage wants to cast the spell very quickly, perhaps CL III is appropriate. >(and forgive me if there's such a spell in the Jmorvi book, I'm afraid I don't >have it yet). A quick scan of my Jmorvi spell file reveals that the words 'lock' and 'key' appear in no official Columbia spells, so you're forgiven. > 2. On a related topic, does the Jmorvi book have many spells dealing >with the other half of their concern (i.e., minerals/stones)? One of my Shek- >Pvar developed some spells to work with these, although some are merely diff- >erent versions of the metal-spells, and I'd be happy to post them if anyone >would like. Quickly scanning through the Jmorvi tome, it would appear that the bulk of the spells have to do with the manipulation of metals, either giving a metal object some sort of charm or special ability or else allowing the mage to manipulate metals, converting or shaping them. I don't see anything regarding stone, and the only mineral spell I notice is Sight of Eneldir, which you've presumably already found in Harnmaster. I would very much like to see the spells. If you decide not to post them, then please e-mail them directly to me. Perhaps I can fit them into the spell list which I have posted here in the past. > 5. Final comment/question. Does anyone else think the Harnic "pantheon" >seems more a set of conflicting/alternative monotheisms? There was a bit of a debate early this summer regarding this. Somebody stated that the Harnic pantheon was similar enough to that of Rome such that Harnians would tend to pray to whichever god was most convenient to whatever action/effect they desired at the time. While not arguing that they were competing monotheisms, I argued that this was not the case, as the limited number of gods in Harn made them much more general. I pointed out that worship of certain gods was proscribed in certain areas, and that in many areas, the religion of the people appeared to be divided along fairly obvious social class lines. Two results of my argument were that a) religious wars were fairly likely, and b) cross-religion marriages would not be very frequent except in those areas where marriage outside one's social class was common. You'll have to check the archives to see what other points were raised. rbs -- R.B. Schmunk NASA/Goddard Institute, 2880 Broadway, New York, NY 10025 USA From: Keith Martin UGA Bookstore Computer Department Subject: Re: Spells, Calendars, and Gods > > From: Harry Butler > Subject: Spells, Calendars, and Gods > > Hi, all, I'm new to the list, so forgive me if I raise some questions long > dealt with. I have a few questions/comments: > > 1. In my campaign I have a Jmorvi Shek-Pvar currently working on a > spell to open mechanical metal locks (not enchanted locks); the spell would > open locks of a complexity level = SI. I'm not sure about assigning a level > to this. 3rd seems about right to me, but I'd welcome any other suggestions > (and forgive me if there's such a spell in the Jmorvi book, I'm afraid I don't > have it yet). > You might consider making it a multi-level spell that can open mechanical locks of complexity equal to or lower than it's level. Alternately, consider making it a spell to _Lock_ a mechanical lock, with _unlocking_ a bonus effect at higher ML. > 2. On a related topic, does the Jmorvi book have many spells dealing > with the other half of their concern (i.e., minerals/stones)? One of my Shek- > Pvar developed some spells to work with these, although some are merely diff- > erent versions of the metal-spells, and I'd be happy to post them if anyone > would like. I always considered stones/earth more of a Fyvrian thing. There are some published Jmorvi spells dealing with minerals, such as "Tears of Kimyan" (I think) which lets you squeeze nearly pure metal out of ore-bearing rock. > > I'm currently working on a rough martyrology for both Peonian and Laranian >saints, with some regional variations,to provide a fuller religious background, > and I'd welcome input from others. I would love to see anything you have come up with so far. E-mail or post- I am sure most of the people on the list would be interested in this sort of thing. > > 4. Is anyone running priests in their current campaigns? I ran one on > once, and the player found it OK, but not a terrific time. He's willing to try > again, however, and I was wondering what success others had had with PC > priests. Nope. All of my pc's are adherants of one diety or another, but no priestly player characters. > > 5. Final comment/question. Does anyone else think the Harnic "pantheon" >seems more a set of conflicting/alternative monotheisms? I'm experimenting with > incorporating full-fledged cultural religious groups (by the way, do you think > the Molnasians worship Larani?) in such a way that Sarajin may be the dominant > Ivinian god, but he's not the only one (I think the demi-god associates are OK > as is, but that there's need for more). This will become more important in my > campaign, I think, as characters begin to adventure on Lythia proper. Anyhow, > comments welcome. I have always felt like the pantheon was a bit lean, but I haven't had the inclination to flesh it out myself. (Too lazy, basicly) > > Thanks for any comments, etc. > > Harry Butler > hgb1@troi.cc.rochester.edu > > -- Keith Martin keith@moe.coe.uga.edu kbmartin@uga.cc.uga.edu ------------------------------------------- And by the half light of burning republics Joe Stalin looks just like Uncle Sam -XTC From: Magnus Lycka Subject: Re: Spells, Calendars, and Gods > > From: pcrxs@nasagiss.giss.nasa.gov (R.B. Schmunk) > Subject: Re: Spells, Calendars, and Gods > > Harry Butler writes: > [stuff deleted] > > > 5. Final comment/question. Does anyone else think the Harnic "pantheon" > >seems more a set of conflicting/alternative monotheisms? > > There was a bit of a debate early this summer regarding this. Somebody > stated that the Harnic pantheon was similar enough to that of Rome > such that Harnians would tend to pray to whichever god was most > convenient to whatever action/effect they desired at the time. > While not arguing that they were competing monotheisms, I argued > that this was not the case, as the limited number of gods in Harn > made them much more general. I pointed out that worship of certain > gods was proscribed in certain areas, and that in many areas, the > religion of the people appeared to be divided along fairly obvious > social class lines. Two results of my argument were that a) religious > wars were fairly likely, and b) cross-religion marriages would not be > very frequent except in those areas where marriage outside one's > social class was common. You'll have to check the archives to see what > other points were raised. > Well, I'll go along with a) above. The conflicts between Kanday and Rethem definitely have religious components. But there are at least one exception from b) that occurs now and then. I have gotten the impression that wives of members of the nobility often are adherants of Peoni even though their husbands are usually Laranians. If my memory is correct, it's stated in Staff of Fanon that Lady Ygrena is a pious adherant of Peoni, but in ISOP 2 she writes something like: 'May the Lady of Paladins be with you' in her letter to the PC's. This may not mean that she is actively worshipping Larani, but it shows that Larani is held in respect by her. Considering how the gods are described in "Gods of Harn" etc it wouldn't seem strange to me if for instance a farmer would worship Peoni to get a good harvest and to get a strong son when his wife is pregnant, and then pray to Larani if he has to go into battle. I could even think that he would ask Siem to bring him happy dreams if he was haunted by nightmares... These thoughts apply to Kaldor, Melderyn, Chybisa and Kanday. In Rethem and the Thardic republic, where worship of Agrik is common, cross marriages with peonians would of course be more or less impossible (if there is any amount of free will involved from both parties). I don't even think it's likely that anyone would worship more than one of the evil gods. In Orbaal, religion is almost entirely a matter of social class. JML -- Name .............: Magnus Lycka, MSc, Design Engineer | All opinions Office Address ...: Saab Ericsson Space AB | expressed here S-405 15 GOTEBORG,SWEDEN | are my own. Office Phone .....: int+46 31 354229 | Fax ..............: int+46 31 359520 | Email ............: Magnus_Lycka@space.combitech.se | From: pcrxs@nasagiss.giss.nasa.gov (R.B. Schmunk) Subject: Columbia Games Product Listing (RPGs) Re-printed from rec.games.frp.misc: >The Columbia Games RPG Product Listing is now available on the Internet. If >you'd like a copy, send email to this account (a481@mindlink.bc.ca) and put >RPG LISTING in the subject header. A copy of the product listing will be >emailed to you within 24 hours. > >-- >J.D. Frazer, a481@mindlink.bc.ca | Columbia Games Internet Representative >Vancouver, B.C., Canada | Editor of Harnlore -- R.B. Schmunk NASA/Goddard Institute, 2880 Broadway, New York, NY 10025 USA From: Harry Butler Subject: Calendars Last week I offered to post the current version of the religious calendar for Larani and Peoni worshippers in my campaign. Here it is; I hope you find it useful. In my campaign I have been emphasizing the relatively close ties between the churches of Larani and Peoni, so this is a combined calendar. I have marked each festival L or P, or LP if I think of it as combined. I have noted regions where some festivals are emphasized (and of course some are peculiarly local). Please feel free to suggest additions. Nuzyael 1 Festival of the New Year (LP) -- celebrations differ Peonu 4 Restoration Festival (P) 21 Memorial of the Destruction of Mykkal's Shrine (LP) -- in Thay 23 Festival of Saint Janasyn the Second Pontiff (L) Kelen 6 Anniversary of the Order of Hyvrik (L) -- western Harn 9 Festival of Sts. Perdyn and Baryne (L) -- Kanday and Melderyn 10 Festival of Saint Anorec (L) -- eastern Kaldor (from Migration Wars) 19 Festival of Saint Blas (LP) -- Shorkyne & Trierzon 26 Festival of Saint Nascien the Hermit (P) 28 Festival of "Saint" Brigyde -- parts of Kanday Nolus 24 Festival of Saint Andasin (LP) -- Kanday 28 Festival of Yselde the Trothmaker (P) Larane 10 The Election of Saint Perelyne (L) 15 Festival of Saint Harbraen (P) -- esp. in Shorkyne 17 Festival of Saint Ambrathas (L) 27 Festival of Saint Mykkal of Jekese (P) -- esp. in Melderyn Agrazhar 2 Festival of St. Derinea of Shulde (P) -- Melderyn 7 Festival of Saint Raenar of Brynd (P) -- Kaldor Azura 4 Harvest Home, Festival of Maermal (P) 8 Festival of St. Raoul of the Fishes (P) 8 Festival of the Knights of Tirith (L) 17 Festival of St. Sahail of Abriel (L) -- Kaldor 28 Festival of St. Galar the Healer (P) -- Kaldor Halane 6 Festival of Tirrala, Foremost of Healers (P) 15 Festival of Saint Fardir (L) -- esp. in Chybisa 19 Festival of Saint Faviana, Martyr (P) -- Trierzon Savor 22 Festival of Valamin the Sad (L) 26 Festival of Saint Safransi of the Sheaf (P) Ilvin 9 Festival of Saint Cerdan I, Pontiff (L) 12 Anniversary of the Order of the Lady of Paladins (L) -- eastern Harn 13 Festival of the Aerlathos (P) 23 Festival of Saint Eshaela (P) -- Shorkyne 27 Festival of Saint Perelyne of Tengela (L) Navek 5 Festival of Sts. Marabrine & Oswyn, Warriors (L) -- Kanday 22 Anniversary of the Order of the Spear of Shattered Sorrow (L) -- eastern Harn 27 Anniversary of the Order of the Checkered Shield (L) -- western Harn 28 Festival of Saint Bernoth of Tannel (L) -- Kaldor Morgat 1 Festival of "St." Torlyne Meleken (LP) -- Qualdris in Kaldor 4 Remembrance of Queen Eriel (LP) -- Kanday 22 Festival of Mendiz the Chamberlain (L) 23 Festival of St. Alamarel, Pontiff (P) 28 Festival of Belsirasin the Weeper (P) 28 Festival of St. Egenis, Pontiff (L) Subject: Hello to the list! From: a481@mindlink.bc.ca (J.D. Frazer) Hello to everyone on the mailing list! I've been absolutely deluged with mail since that posting I made a little while back, and some of the letters were from people on this list asking me to post copies of official announcements here as well as on the newsgroups. I've agreed to do it, and I'll even take it one step further -- if the list members see a need for it, I'll gladly spend a little more time and post sneak previews of what's to come. An inside look at this will give you advance knowledge of projects in the pipeline. But a word of caution: since this would be "unofficial" information, release dates and project details may change like the wind. Anything I post on .announce is definite and carved in stone. Anything else is far more flexible. There are a few issues I want to deal with before proceeding. First, in my capacity as editor of Harnlore, I'm happy to say that I handed Tom Dalgliesh the first drafts for HL12 today. Eric Hotz should be putting together the interior maps over the coming weekend, and I'll be back dealing with the production staff come Monday or Tuesday to oversee the final proofs. With any luck, we'll have HL12 ready to ship by the end of the month. HL13 is already underway, and I should have the roughs done by next weekend. I intend to hand Tom the first drafts by the end of this month, so we might see publication by mid October. HL13 will offer an article (a big one!) that details an awfully mysterious site. I'm estimating 14-16 pages for this one. HL12 was supposed to be shipped by the end of June, and HL13 is due by the end of this month. I just picked up the editorship a couple weeks ago, so I'll be playing catchup until the end of the year with HL14. After that, I'll make dead certain that Harnlore comes out on time. One thing that Tom and I are painfully aware of is the poor deadline record that Columbia has. I'm striving to help change that in a big way. In case some of you didn't know, Curse of Hlen (Part III of the Panaga Trilogy) is out and being shipped. That's the latest product from Columbia's Harn series. The next module...well, let's leave that for another letter. Other issues: someone from the list asked me if we accept Letters to the Editor by email. Answer: Yes. To extend that concept, we even accept articles for Harnlore over the net. However, save yourself some time and effort and send me a query letter first, and include a synopsis of the article you'd like to write. To answer a final question that has been asked of me multiple times: how involved am I with Columbia Games? Deep. I used to work for them back in the 80's, and I'm back again. I hated every other job I had between now and then, even though I made far more money. This is a great example of money not being able to buy you happiness. Anyway, there's a purpose to this posting. As the editor of HL, I'm naturally interested in what sorts of articles you'd like to see done. Do you like site articles? Common Knowledge? Shek-P'var spells? Adventures? Also, is anyone interested in a collection of rules expansions and scenarios for Battlelust? Is their something you'd like to see that we're not publishing in HL? We're interested in your opinions! *Please*, post to the list unless your reply must remain absolutely, positively private. If you must email me over the next little while, be advised that I have about seventy pieces of unread mail in my mailbox. And it's growing every day. :-O Anyway, I'm pleased to see the list is still running and kudos to Eric Parsons for volunteering the time and effort to maintain it. Ta for now! -- J.D. Frazer, a481@mindlink.bc.ca | Columbia Games Internet Representative Vancouver, B.C., Canada | Editor of Harnlore From: phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu (Paul Lehman) Subject: feedback to JD Frazier/HL/Columbia/the list >Anyway, there's a purpose to this posting. As the editor of HL, I'm >naturally interested in what sorts of articles you'd like to see done. Do >you like site articles? Common Knowledge? Shek-P'var spells? Adventures? Little rule expansions such as Hunting and Dogs (good ones) and Real Estate and Household (not so good). Sites are ALWAYS good, and I especially like the kind of sites that appeared early on-Invarny, Escorsen's Hermitage, Trail's Peril, etc. (places that weren't castles/keeps that did however provide little diversions between bigger plotlines or game me an idea of how Columbia saw some of these places). Common knowledge and SP spells depend to a much greater extent on how good they are as individual articles. Good ones are fine, but reading a bad one is much more disappointing than reading a bad (should I say "uninspired"?) site or rule. >Also, is anyone interested in a collection of rules expansions and >scenarios for Battlelust? Is their something you'd like to see that we're >not publishing in HL? We're interested in your opinions! Yes, although I felt like BL really did not deliver what I was promised. As far as what is in HL, I (and maybe many others) would be happy just to see it come out more often. If I (or we) could depend on reasonably regular publishing I would be much more inclined to write something or worry about what's NOT in HL. ---------- phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu Sacrifice us! - Popol Vuh Subject: Re: feedback to JD Frazer/HL/Columbia/the list From: a481@mindlink.bc.ca (J.D. Frazer) > phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu (Paul Lehman) writes: > Little rule expansions such as Hunting and Dogs (good ones) and Real Estate > and Household (not so good). OK. Are there any in particular you'd like to see? > Sites are ALWAYS good, and I especially like the kind of sites that > appeared early on-Invarny, Escorsen's Hermitage, Trail's Peril, etc. > (places that weren't castles/keeps that did however provide little > diversions between bigger plotlines or game me an idea of how Columbia saw > some of these places). HL12 features a 10 page article on Caer Bedenes. HL13 will offer a not-so-little site that *isn't* a keep or castle. > Common knowledge and SP spells depend to a much greater extent on how good > they are as individual articles. Good ones are fine, but reading a bad one > is much more disappointing than reading a bad (should I say "uninspired"?) > site or rule. I couldn't agree with you more. I know some writers will wince at this, but I'll be tightening the reins on quality for HL. I have *always* hated filler. > Yes, although I felt like BL really did not deliver what I was promised. In what ways were you disappointed? > As far as what is in HL, I (and maybe many others) would be happy just to > see > it come out more often. If I (or we) could depend on reasonably regular > publishing I would be much more inclined to write something or worry about > what's NOT in HL. The regularity won't be a problem; I've seen to that. Do you feel HL should be published at a more frequent rate than quarterly? -- J.D. Frazer, a481@mindlink.bc.ca | Columbia Games Internet Representative Vancouver, B.C., Canada | Editor of Harnlore From: phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu (Paul Lehman) Subject: Curse of Panaga local mapping I just fired off a message to Columbia about Curse of Panaga (which arrived within the past week-I am an Autoship customer) and the new way they have of marking/numbering locations on the local maps. If you have not seen COP yet (or HarnLore 11), they have started to use rather large symbols that combine a number with a Guild Badge or similar device. I really do not like this approach nor the computerized mapping that has also apparantly become the standard way of doing things. How do the rest of you feel about this? If you are opposed to it, I encourage you to email their official rep to that effect! In addition, if anybody would like a synopsis of the module let me know and I'll post one ASAP. ---------- phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu As John Perry Barlow, the co-founder of EFF puts it: "In Cyberspace, the First Amendment is a local ordinance." From: pcrxs@nasagiss.giss.nasa.gov (R.B. Schmunk) Subject: Re: feedback Paul Lehman (>>) and J.D. Frazer (>) write: >> Little rule expansions such as Hunting and Dogs (good ones) and Real Estate >> and Household (not so good). > >OK. Are there any in particular you'd like to see? Ditto the recommends for rules supplements. And I'll admit to being one who *liked* the Real Estate and Household articles. In my old campaign the PCs had a sort of base of operations and were contemplating the merits of renting or purchasing a house. Real Estate came in handy in making the decision. For future installments, my first choice would be something on ghosts and the ethereal plain. Currently, the only hard information is what's tacked onto the psionic skill information and something in one of the Common Knowledge mini-adventures. However, the various EH articles make so many references to ghosts that I feel as a GM that I've been remiss in not exploiting them. So... I'd like some more info on the nuts and bolts of Harnic ghosts: stat, skills, special capabilities, etc. Of course, doing this might also require that somebody clean up the Psionic rules. Wouldn't that be a shame. :-) >> Sites are ALWAYS good, and I especially like the kind of sites that >> appeared early on-Invarny, Escorsen's Hermitage, Trail's Peril, etc. >> (places that weren't castles/keeps that did however provide little >> diversions between bigger plotlines or game me an idea of how Columbia saw >> some of these places). Ditto this recommend also. I've used Tyana's Shade and planned on using Escorsen's Hermitage when I get around to running a new campaign (moving put the damper on my old one). >HL13 will offer a >not-so-little site that *isn't* a keep or castle. Ridow? Oh please please please pretty please. >> Common knowledge and SP spells depend to a much greater extent on how good >> they are as individual articles. The Common Knowledge articles only entered my old campaign to the extent of on odd legend thrown out there when a little flavor was needed, like when the PCs were sitting around a tavern and some tale-telling got started. I had thought about running the Spear of Shattered Sorrow sometime but never got around to working out how I would do so. Re: spells. I would like to see new ones published, but the current booklets are extremely handy. If new spells appeared in HarnLore, I'd have to worry about making photocopies and having odd sheets of paper floating around my Harn box. What I would like is for Columbia to publish another series of Tomes like the first set, but a) with some higher level spells (just what does a CL X spell look like?) and b) with better proofreading of the typos. >>>Also, is anyone interested in a collection of rules expansions and >>>scenarios for Battlelust? >Yes, although I felt like BL really did not deliver what I was promised. Well, BattleLust took so long to come out and the rumors about about what was in it were so varied, that I think a lot of folks may have been disappointed when they finally saw it. Having not had the chance to play a BattleLust scenario yet, I can't all that excited about new BL supplements. >> As far as what is in HL, I (and maybe many others) would be happy just to >> see >> it come out more often > >The regularity won't be a problem; I've seen to that. Do you feel HL should >be published at a more frequent rate than quarterly? I expect Paul is referring to "more often" in the sense of "more than once per year". If you really can get it up to quarterly, I think most of us would be very happy. And if you can do so, you'll have a feel for whether it's possible to even bi-monthly or whatever. One HarnItem that I think needs to see publication is the Bear Arms article which used to be on HarnLine. I found this document enormously helpful in giving my players a sense of the society their characters were moving about in. Of course, if my campaign had continued, their might have been some problems with them starting a revolution by the proletariat. ("Come the revolution, we all carry broadswords.") Perhaps Columbia will be including this in the upcoming HarnPeople publication listed in the RPG LISTING. If not, print it in HarnLore. rbs -- R.B. Schmunk Email: pcrxs@valinor.giss.nasa.gov Smail: NASA/Goddard Institute, 2880 Broadway, New York, NY 10025 USA Vox: 212-678-5637 Subject: Re: feedback From: a481@mindlink.bc.ca (J.D. Frazer) > pcrxs@nasagiss.giss.nasa.gov (R.B. Schmunk) writes: > Ditto the recommends for rules supplements. And I'll admit to being one who > *liked* the Real Estate and Household articles. In my old campaign the PCs > had a sort of base of operations and were contemplating the merits of > renting or purchasing a house. Real Estate came in handy in making the > decision. Glad to hear it. Rules supplements will make their way into HL fairly regularly -- you're not the only person who has requested it. > For future installments, my first choice would be something on ghosts and > the ethereal plain. Currently, the only hard information is what's tacked > onto the psionic skill information and something in one of the Common > Knowledge mini-adventures. However, the various EH articles make so many > references to ghosts that I feel as a GM that I've been remiss in not > exploiting them. So... I'd like some more info on the nuts and bolts of > Harnic ghosts: stat, skills, special capabilities, etc. Ghosts, spirits, spectres and their kin. Hmm, sounds like a terrific subject to write about. I'll discuss it with the rest of the staff tomorrow. > Of course, doing this might also require that somebody clean up the Psionic > rules. Wouldn't that be a shame. :-) You won't catch *me* doing it. :-) >>HL13 will offer a not-so-little site that *isn't* a keep or castle. > Ridow? Oh please please please pretty please. Sorry, Ridow deserves a module all on its own. HL13 will concentrate on a small island off the east coast of Harn. (I can just see everyone scrambling for their maps as they read this :-) ) As far as the Ridow module -- are there any others who would like to see it? > Re: spells. I would like to see new ones published, but the current > booklets are extremely handy. If new spells appeared in HarnLore, I'd have > to worry about making photocopies and having odd sheets of paper floating > around my Harn box. What I would like is for Columbia to publish another > series of Tomes like the first set, but a) with some higher level spells > (just what does a CL X spell look like?) and b) with better proofreading of > the typos. Great idea. I'll pipe that down to Robin when I see him next. > One HarnItem that I think needs to see publication is the Bear Arms article > which used to be on HarnLine. I found this document enormously helpful in > giving my players a sense of the society their characters were moving about > in. Of course, if my campaign had continued, their might have been some > problems with them starting a revolution by the proletariat. ("Come the > revolution, we all carry broadswords.") Perhaps Columbia will be including > this in the upcoming HarnPeople publication listed in the RPG LISTING. If > not, print it in HarnLore. It'll likely be included with HarnPeople. Thanks for your thoughts! Any others? -- J.D. Frazer, a481@mindlink.bc.ca | Columbia Games Internet Representative Vancouver, B.C., Canada | Editor of Harnlore From: Magnus Lycka Subject: Re: feedback > > Subject: Re: feedback > From: a481@mindlink.bc.ca (J.D. Frazer) > > Sorry, Ridow deserves a module all on its own. HL13 will concentrate on a > small island off the east coast of Harn. (I can just see everyone scrambling > for their maps as they read this :-) ) > > As far as the Ridow module -- are there any others who would like to see it? > YES! -- Name .............: Magnus Lycka, MSc, Design Engineer | All opinions Office Address ...: Saab Ericsson Space AB | expressed here S-405 15 GOTEBORG,SWEDEN | are my own. Office Phone .....: int+46 31 354229 | Fax ..............: int+46 31 359520 | Email ............: Magnus_Lycka@space.combitech.se | =============================================================================== [Mod. note: I'm gluing Magnus' note to the top of Paul's just so everyone doesn't get 9000 lines of header, just to hear a resounding YES about hearing about the Ridow module. -Eric] =============================================================================== From: phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu (Paul Lehman) Subject: Re: feedback to JD Frazer/HL/Columbia/the list >> phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu (Paul Lehman) writes: >> Little rule expansions such as Hunting and Dogs (good ones) and Real Estate >> and Household (not so good). > >OK. Are there any in particular you'd like to see? I agree with R.B. Schmunk about ghosts, spirits, shades, and the like. (Check out mental conflict in SP though.) More concrere stats and a way to generated different strength and differently "motivated" or restricted such creatures would be interesting. Another would be martial arts. Several people have developed martial arts systems independently, so I think the interest is there. The tournament/jousting stuff on this mailing list a while back is another good example of something that could be formally tested a little more and then codified. As far as RE and HH goes, part of the reason for my disappointment is the fact that several people (I saw it on Duffleboard a LONG time ago) made some good suggestions on improving both of them, especially RE, but what got published was very close to the original draft. >> Yes, although I felt like BL really did not deliver what I was promised. > >In what ways were you disappointed? I'll post something longer soon. >The regularity won't be a problem; I've seen to that. Do you feel HL should >be published at a more frequent rate than quarterly? Yes, but I'd like to see a period of consistent quarterly publication first. For me, there is no such thing as too much decent-to-good material, but I'd be ecstatic just to receive it quarterly. >> Re: spells. I would like to see new ones published, but the current >> booklets are extremely handy. If new spells appeared in HarnLore, I'd have >> to worry about making photocopies and having odd sheets of paper floating >> around my Harn box. What I would like is for Columbia to publish another >> series of Tomes like the first set, but a) with some higher level spells >> (just what does a CL X spell look like?) and b) with better proofreading of >> the typos. > >Great idea. I'll pipe that down to Robin when I see him next. I too worry about having loose pages flying all over the place, and thus would kind of like to see spells 3-hole punchable so that we could add spells official and otherwise. I have no solution for this problem, though. >It'll likely be included with HarnPeople. I've seen HarnPeople mentioned twice, but don't know what it is. Help! ---------- phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu As John Perry Barlow, the co-founder of EFF puts it: "In Cyberspace, the First Amendment is a local ordinance." From: pcrxs@nasagiss.giss.nasa.gov (R.B. Schmunk) Subject: HarnPeople == HarnPlayer Paul Lehman asks: >I've seen HarnPeople mentioned twice, but don't know what it is. Help! Oops, I meant HarnPlayer. Maybe I say it called HarnPeople in an old HarnLore. Anyway, from J.D.'s RPG LISTING: 4201 HarnPlayer SEP/93 $20.00 A players' guide to Harn. Includes a player-friendly expansion of the HarnMaster character generation and skills rules, and a Harnic cultural and role-playing and survival guide. A must buy for all players. Also listed for release soon are: 5071 Nasty, Brutish & Short OCT/93 $16.00 A module detailing Harn's gargun, with local maps and plans of six foulspawn settlements. 5103 Ibanvaal NOV/93 $16.00 The aggressive and dynamic kingdom of central Ivinia, including maps and details of the towns of Harling and Pelby, Dagenborg castle, and two mysterious Earthmaster sites. 5202 Cities of Shorkyne DEC/93 $25.00 A selection of Shorkyni cities, similar to Cities of Harn. NB&S seems to have suffered the usual delays. When I talked with Tom D. on the phone last February, he was making noises like it would be out during the spring. Having spotted the teeny-weeny Chelemby map in the Shorkyne regional module, I hope that means it will be included in CoS. And here's another idea for a new Columbia product. You know those nifty regional maps that some of use to decorate our living room walls? How about one of Kethira. You know, just take on the two-page color maps from the HarnWorld module, blow it up to the regional map size (2'x3'?) and sell it for $15 like the other maps. I'd buy one. One last thing, folks have commented that they have Curse of Hlen in their grubby little hands. How about a review from someone? rbs -- R.B. Schmunk Email: pcrxs@valinor.giss.nasa.gov Smail: NASA/Goddard Institute, 2880 Broadway, New York, NY 10025 USA Vox: 212-678-5637 From: phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu (Paul Lehman) Subject: SPOILER ALERT! - Curse of Hlen review You've been warned... The first thing you'll notice is the great cover: a bar in the City of Nascent Visions. Inside are the following sections: PLOT 6 pgs, BORIN 4, HLEN 8, VADEN TOL 2, VARAXIS 12, CITY OF NASCENT VISIONS 10, and 4 pages of NPC records. Overall there is lots of neat stuff and lots of opportunity (necessity?) for GM development. However, the whole thing is much like the Gate of Kemdal (or a James Bond film): zoom from place to place without much reason, except that they are exotic or remote locales with fascinating and dangerous inhabitants, and muck about a bit everywhere you stop. Personally, I got a little magic-lagged from the dizzying pace of travel. PLOT: Synopsis of modules 1 & 2, lead-ins/exits, summaries of the rest of the module and how it all fits together, etc. Nicely done and necessary, although I felt like I needed to take notes. BORIN: Typical Ivinian (actually Harbalese of course) thran developed in the usual fashion. Makes use of guild badges and enlarged numbers for locations on the computer map. Judging by recent maps, somebody realized that many coasts have dunes along them, and Borin introduces stone walls in the countryside. HLEN: Another thran, although this one should see much more action than Borin. Usaul level of general devlopment, but with more detail on local history, both ancient and recent. Unfortunately, anyone expecting detail on those Jarin corpses will be very disappointed (no rules, no background, not even really present). VADEN TOL: Barasi point phenomenon beginning at Hlen and taking whoever to Varaxis and the City of Nascent Visions (CONV). This is the essence of all the modules-cruising for bad guys among various planes of existence-but I (IMHO) feel like it's time for some other mechanism besides Barasi Points/whatever that was in Staff of Fanon. How about being summoned by Panaga the way human/Harnic SP summon other creatures? How about an artifact or having to sneak through on somebody else's spell? VARAXIS: Nebulous plane of existence partly resembling the area around Hlen and partly a mist world. Includes fascinating stuff on the various dead/souls associated with Hlen as well as a Save K'nor servant (Varax) administering the mandatory morality play/test for the PCs in the form of seven trials. Obviously, I would have much preferred more of the former and just skip the whole bit about the Seven Trials of Varax. Why the two go together does not make sense to me at all. Again, when I run it I am thinking of just using the undead/mistworld part as taking place in another plane of existence (p-world of Yashain?) that the PCs access somehow. I will also add something for them to DO there as opposed to the more passvie (info seeking) nature of the module as written. They can meet Varax and his Seven Trials some other time/place. CITY OF NASCENT VISIONS: An ancient Yashainian city of 17,000 inhabitants of several different and quite interesting races. Feels similar to Nevara in terms of being on Yashain (sort of like regular old Kethira carried to extremes) which is quite an accomplishment. Includes a little bit of development of the city (with maps), but there is lots still to do. I would buy a whole module on the CONV and environs, and PCs could spend lots of time just checking out the city (they may have to anyway in order to get Panaga), so be prepared for either some instant development or doing a lot of preparation for this site. The rationale and structure (physical, social, and cultural) of the CONV is great, EXCEPT for the part about Panaga and Marsuk-Gandrak. Panaga's trickery of Ikaras, the powers of the Dar'k'tir, and details of Marsuk-Gandrak may have been intentionally left vague for GM personalization or to prevent PCs from just reading the module, but I think they've got to give us more than what's there. Either it's anticlimactic or you may as well write your own adventure. In balance, though, the CONV itself more than makes up for the lack of detail about the key scenes/locales of the end of the adventure (there is actually more about this in the PLOT section than in the CONV article). Two final notes: First, there are, as usual, a number of interesting little tidbits. Notice that the governor of the CONV speaks Latin and that the armour now has a size factor. Second, the module also includes a full color, two-page map of the northern half of the Skorkyne map (meaning Harbaal and Quarph), except that is poetic in style and label in a rune-like font that I could not read. The artwork is quite good, although perhaps the road network could be a little less accurate and precise given that it is a poetic map (for player consumption/display on the wall?). The b&W map on the back is in regular old script however. So, I'm off to the Flying Boat (CONV #52). ---------- phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu 2 + 2 = 5 for sufficiently large values of 2. From: Magnus Lycka Subject: Re: SPOILER ALERT - Curse of Hlen review This was a nice post. (The review that is.) Fortunately I am as exited by Curse of Hlen now as I was before I read the review... It gave me a few ideas though. It seems that some parts could be improved, and even though I'm sure we have different ideas about what's best to do, it seems silly to invent the wheel over and over again. Perhaps some of us here on the harn list could develop CONV and the ending of the plot together? I haven't seen the module yet, but perhaps a few of us could develop a part of the city each. We could probably get the ending more exiting too, with some joint efforts. Variations on Vaden Tol, Varaxis etc. would probably be of interrest too. What about it? Someone interrested? JML -- Name .............: Magnus Lycka, MSc, Design Engineer | All opinions Office Address ...: Saab Ericsson Space AB | expressed here S-405 15 GOTEBORG,SWEDEN | are my own. Office Phone .....: int+46 31 354229 | Fax ..............: int+46 31 359520 | Email ............: Magnus_Lycka@space.combitech.se | From: phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu (Paul Lehman) Subject: Fidonet Echo repost This is a message I sent out on Fidonet Echo in March 93. I know there was some discussion about this earlier (I read it in the archives), but see what you think as this includes some hard numbers. ========================================================== To make a long story rather short, I ran into a little problem while trying to figure our a what to have my computer calculate MLs automatically for NPCs. The idea was that I would just assign so many development rolls based on the age of the character and the "intensity" of their life (a second variable to represent how achievement oriented/self-maximizing/PC-like this particular NPC was). I also figured that it would be faster if I just derived a regression equation for ML based on SB and skill development rolls (DR) with a little variance thrown in as the error term. HA! Anyways, I ran the SBs from 1-21 thru a Monte Carlo simulation up to 200 DRs with 200 trials for each SB. I recorded all the data, massaged it, came out with an equation, and produced some neato graphs: ML = 2.15 + SB + 0.807 DR - 0.002 DR^2 R^2 >= 0.99 This assumes that the 1st DR opens the skill to SB1. The equation above produces results that quite closely match the Monte Carlo simulation I ran. Residuals are usually less than 0.5 MLs and really only exceed on ML at high SBs and high MLs. Between ML = 30 to 90 it is real solid regardless of SB. In looking over my data I saw that the range of possible MLs for a given number of DRs increased steadily till about DR = 75 to 100 when it reached about 20 (there was some variation in the maximum range of MLs obtained for different SBs), after which ML range declined slowly, but stayed above 10 till 200 DRs was reached. ML range (and standard deviation) was best modelled by a high order polynomial equation, but that would be too complex for my purposes, and after considerable tinkering, I settled on a simple linear formula : Range = -| ML - 80 | / 4 + 20 (that's absolute value) This produces a maximum range at ML = 80, no variation at all at ML = 0, and a range of 10 at ML = 40 or 120. By multiplying the range at a given ML by a normal distribution from -1.0 to +1.0, I could add a little uncertainty to the made up MLs that I was making up for my NPCs. So far, no problem. Then I thought for a second about what happened above 200 DRs and took a second look at my regression equation. Big Problem. It has, of course, an inflection point just a wee bit above 200 DRs, and so it won't generate MLs any greater than those it calculates for 200 DRs. Well, since the whole purpose was to estimate how high MLs should be based on life experience (and thereby skill development rolls), I had to come up with a different system for figuring MLs for NPCs with lots of DRs. It's been a while and I have forgotten much more than I realized, but after a while I came up with this equation that expresses the expected (or mean) number of DRs it would take to advance to any given ML: DRs = 100 / (100 - Ml + SB) which was revealed to me by the much harder-to-figure out general situation of: expected number of rounds till event = sigma ( n*p* ((1-p)^n-1)) where n is the infinite series summed from 1 to infinity and p equals the probability of the event occurring on that particular round or turn (or DR). I forgot how to solve infinite series problems, so I just gave in and used numerical methods to find that the answer is simply 1/p. So, as everybody already knows intuitively, as the probability of a given event occurring decreases the expected number of chances for that event to occur before it actually does goes up. In Harn terms, it takes many more DRs (on average) to increase ML the higher ML already is. What I did not anticipate was a formula as simple as 1/p or 100 / (100 - ML + SB). BTW: variance on that formula should be binomially distributed I think. Now if you have managed to stick with me this far, let me apologize for that long introduction, because my real beef is with what this means for character development (PCs and NPCs). I am sure that many of you have run into the situation where PCs quickly build up high MLs by using (and abusing) the skill rules (fighting cripples and casting spells out in the open just for practice), and I am also sure that most everyone has found a way to deal with this (GM discretion and all) by inflicting nasty CFs or whatever. (Combat and spell casting in "real" situations is most likely inherently dangerous enough to prevent the HarnMaster equivalent of opening dungeon doors just to kill monsters for XPs.) Enough posturing; some statistics from those equations: it takes on average 519 DRs to go from SB1 to SB+100 (max out ML) and 100 of those are for the very last ML point! For an average character (SB=11), 101 DRs will give them a ML of 75. (I have charts of both incremental and total DRs by SB and ML if anyone wants them.) Now before you say 100 or 500 DRs is a lot, and maybe it is for your campaign or especially for combat skills or spells, let me quote a few figures from Skills 7 in HarnMaster: 3 bonus rolls per month (OK, maybe not for NPCs), 1 bonus roll _per_ 12 hours of instruction OR 40 hours of "employment". Let's just talk about extreme situations for now. In an intensive training program (12 hrs/day), the student would reach the teacher's limit (whose ML must be 20 pts greater) in 159 days (5+ months) and have a ML of between 81 and 101 depending on SB (this all assumes the teacher has maxed out their ML and has an equal or higher SB). Now that may be an extreme situation, but what about a regular craftsman who works 40 hours/week and thus gets about 50 DRs per year (not too onerous a schedule, especially for pre-industrial people). Assuming this person starts at SB1 (as an apprentice say), after year one ML would be up 39 points, after year two ML increases another 24 points, year three sees a 15 point gain, years four and five 8 and 6 points of ML gain respectively, bringing us after five years to a ML that is 92 points higher than SB. Before I address a few potential counter-points, let me point out that we are talking about nearly an order of magnitude problem here, not just some fine tuning! MLs in the 90s and 100s have always been presented as "mastery" or "one of the finest in the kingdom" and so on, and I just cannot reconcile those descriptions with the fact that just about everyone (apprentice or master or whomever) will reach that level after several years. Now, I can see where some skills can be learned and mastered pretty quickly, especially where the character is diligent and challenges themselves or where the skill is pretty simple to begin with, but the rules as written don't really mention that (indeed, they suggest to me the opposite). I suggest that the system be modified so that it takes a week of training and a month of (real, challenging) work to get a DR while leaving the DR rules for combat, spells, and other stressful situations as they are. This way, after about a 50 month apprenticeship, the new journeyman will have a realistic ML and it will take the better part of a long, productive lifetime full of challenging and difficult work to max out ML (this is particularly true of the more mentally demanding skills and even of skills such as jewelcraft). Younger characters would still have relatively high MLs, just not stratospherically high. BTW: I have not really thought about it, but the implications of these DR formulas are even greater for Khuzdul and especially Sindarin. "Gee, I wonder what is the chance of NOT maxing out ML after 500 years of DRs?" or "What, you mean you have a ML under 110? In which skill, human neuropsychology?" BTW#2 (and slightly off topic): I am toying with recording separate "theoretical knowledge" MLs for skills that decline with age or SB decrease for whatever reason. Whereas the regular ML would decline, theoretical ML would not drop except through disuse (and perhaps a bit slower then) and mental decline. It might also be useful either alone or in combination with Rhetoric/Oratory or Intrigue to evaluate how well a business or franchise is run (the normal ML(s) would be used to determine the quality of the goods and services actually produced). Comments? ---------- phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu 2 + 2 = 5 for sufficiently large values of 2. From: klaus@diku.dk Subject: Re: feedback Concentrate on delivering what you have already promised. Cities of Shorkyne, Trierzon, Azeryan, NB&S. Klaus O K =============================================================================== From: marten@rieska.oulu.fi (Llwyd ap Cadwaladr) Subject: New Products/Autoship/Scandinavia ??? Hum-ho, I assume that all the autoship customers in States/Canada have already received the new products. How about European (especially Scandinavian) autoship customers? I haven't and I certainly am an autoship customer. This may be a mailing problem (or post office problem, whatever). For instance I never, ever received the HarnLore 11. I had to puchase it from the local gaming store (it's a good thing they carry Harn stuff..;-). Anyway, has it arrived to other Autoship- customers and am I again forced to accept the fact (?) that my copy was eaten by a hungry mailman on the way here... Yours, Atte Kinnula From: e90mhg@efd.lth.se (Mikael Hegardt) Subject: Re: SPOILER ALERT - Curse of Hlen review Hmmm... I have yet to see Curse of Hlen, but as Magnus Lycka writes it doesn't discourage me a bit. Instead I get this sudden urge to travel 30 metric miles to Gothenburg and bang on the door to my favorite game store demanding MY copy of Curse of Hlen... As of a developing Curese of Hlen or parts of in a joint effort - why not? I'm in... -----------------------------------------M-----M-I--CCC-M-----M---A----CCC--- Mikael Hegardt M M M M I C M M M M A A C Institute of Technology, Lund, Sweden M M M I C M M M AAAAA C Macapdr, E-sektionen LTH M M I CCC M M A A CCC - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - E-Mail: e90mhg@efd.lth.se Hem: 046/129637 E-sektionen,Ble Dvrren: 046-141497 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Magnus Lycka Subject: Re: ML's for PC's and NPC's I've never made such a deep mathematical study of skill improvement, just quick and dirty calculations in Excel. My conclusions are the same though: It's unrealistically easy to achieve high MLs. I don't have access to the discussions in the archive right now, but I remember that remedies for this was proposed. I don't recall if there was any suggestions about the free monthly dev. rolls, but practice and study should take longer at high SB in these proposals. There were also proposals about the teachers abilities to teach (pedagogy skill). I have a few questions and comment about these things: Has anyone checked how good the average blacksmith (or whatever) will become with the system mentioned in the archives? (As compared to SB+92 after 5 years now) (Intuitively, it seems to me that someone who is very talented and very devoted should need perhaps 20 years to get SB+90. Being very devoted might mean that half of the available dev. rolls are on this skill.) Has anyone out there thought more about dev. roll assignment to NPCs. As I see it, there are two aspects. 1) Ambition and 2) diversity vs. speciality. How good the blacksmith becomes at smithing, depends on how many dev. rolls he gets, as well as how many of those he spends on the particular skill. People are more or less lazy, but also more or less interrested in specializing or learning a little about many things. These factors will naturally have a very important effect on ML. I suppose a bored blacksmith, who is uninterrested in his profession doesn't deserve many dev. rolls on metalcraft per year... The same goes for a blacksmith who spends all the time he can writing poetry. As far as I have experienced reality, ambition and will is often at least as important as talent. (I guess this is really different for different skills though...) Another aspect is realim vs. playability. I have a mage PC in my campaign who needs to get ML 81 in a CL5 multilevel spell rather soon. (Some of you know exactly what I mean.) We don't play often enough to get PCs that live for 10 - 20 Harn-years. So perhaps I don't mind that they get better at things faster than I judge to be "normal". I suppose it's rather natural to assume that most PCs are more ambitious than the average man anyhow. The PCs often have a lot of skills to divide their rolls on anyhow, so they usually don't get so extreme values. At last, I wonder if the reason I studied algebra, calculus, numerical analysis, probability and statistics all those years was to be able to understand gaming mechanics. I don't seem to need it designing computers :) JML -- Name .............: Magnus Lycka, MSc, Design Engineer | All opinions Office Address ...: Saab Ericsson Space AB | expressed here S-405 15 GOTEBORG,SWEDEN | are my own. Office Phone .....: int+46 31 354229 | Fax ..............: int+46 31 359520 | Email ............: Magnus_Lycka@space.combitech.se | From: lrg@cherry.cray.com (Lee Gordon) Subject: Re: ML's for PC's and NPC's > From: phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu (Paul Lehman) [ stuff pointing out how skill development rolls/ML increases don't make sense deleted. ] First, I've seen this handled by some GMs saying flat out that NPCs don't get skill development rolls, or NPCs can't increase their MLs through study. I do acknowledge that if you apply the whole ML system equally to PCs and NPCs, there are some problems. > I suggest that the system be modified so that it takes a week of training > and a month of (real, challenging) work to get a DR while leaving the DR > rules for combat, spells, and other stressful situations as they are. This > way, after about a 50 month apprenticeship, the new journeyman will have a > realistic ML and it will take the better part of a long, productive > lifetime full of challenging and difficult work to max out ML (this is > particularly true of the more mentally demanding skills and even of skills > such as jewelcraft). Younger characters would still have relatively high > MLs, just not stratospherically high. My problem with doing something like this is that characters will be forced to become rather one dimensional, and it almost goes back to a class system. Let's say I have a character who is typified as a fighter. Say he chooses to learn lockcraft. If it would take 50 (or even 25) months of training/work before he became reasonably proficient, forget it. You would effectively do away with characters who might have a wide range of skills open at usable levels. (Usable being in the neighborhood of 30-50%). To make it virtually impossible for a character with a natural lifespan of 50 years (or whatever) to become good with a variety of skills doesn't seem right. You can argue that if he uses the skill in "stressful" situations, such as within a dungeon, or whatever, he'll learn faster. However, there are situations when characters may want or need a skill, but will use it seldomly. The physician skill is an example. If the party contains a player with a high physician skill, they will probably be doing all of the bandaging. You don't trust that function to people with SB1. My experience with Harn is that it is extremely rare when EML is close to the ML. When you add in encumberance, fatigue, and injuries, having a -20% penalty is typical. I think that in general NPCs do not suffer from penalties to the same degree that PCs do, and as a result, the PCs MLs need to be higher to compensate. It isn't too often that the group of bandits you just encountered is still injured from a previous fight (at least with our GM). A suggestion for correcting this problem is to tackle it from a different angle. Keep the skill development roll mechanism unchanged. However put in other upper limits on the NPCs MLs based on their affinity for the skill. For example, I took piano for a couple years, and was awful. Let's say I have an SB of 3. A friend of mine is a professional musician, with an SB of 18. Under the current set of rules, it is just as difficult for him to go from ML 19 to 118 as it is for me to go from ML 4 to 103. I know personally that if I ever hit an ML of 50%, I'd be doing good. Maybe the thing to do is to allow NPCs a cap of SB * 7 in their skills. An average NPC (SB 11) would max out as a nearly average journeyman (77%). An NPC with an affinity to the skill (SB 13) would max out at the master stage (91%). Using a cap like that, you'd have a nice bell curve of skill peaks (just like the attributes), so that finding a potential master is much more difficult than finding a potential journeyman. This cap would not apply to PCs (and special case NPCs, GM's discretion), as they are of a different breed and are able to work harder to overcome their natural limits. > BTW#2 (and slightly off topic): I am toying with recording separate > "theoretical knowledge" MLs for skills that decline with age or SB decrease > for whatever reason. Whereas the regular ML would decline, theoretical ML > would not drop except through disuse (and perhaps a bit slower then) and > mental decline. It might also be useful either alone or in combination with > Rhetoric/Oratory or Intrigue to evaluate how well a business or franchise > is run (the normal ML(s) would be used to determine the quality of the > goods and services actually produced). I have thought about this a little bit, and am generally against it when it was all said and done. The biggest reason for me against it is that it could become too much bookkeeping. Another issue is how long do you have to go before the drop occurs? In the campaign I play in, occasionally a mage might decide they'd like to spend 6 months or a year doing spell research. In that case, all of the other characters also choose something to occupy themselves for that time. If my fighter were to lose some of his fighting abilities because he was functioning as an innkeeper or weaponcrafter, I'd be upset. Another problem is that you'd have to record when you last used each skill to determine if the knowledge had become stale. To end on a positive note, I found your numerical results very interesting, and they sparked some ideas in my head. I enjoy seeing these kinds of thought provoking discussions on the list. Any thoughts on my thoughts? -Lee Lee Gordon ATT: 1-612-683-5484 Cray Research, Inc. Fax: 1-612-683-5599 655F Lone Oak Drive Email: lrg@cray.com or Eagan, MN 55121 uunet!cray!lrg From: THE_DA-DA_DUMMY Subject: Re: feedback Hi. Anybody have a copy of ivini or elvael they want to sell (HA!) or knw where I can get a copy? How about staff of Fannon, newly out of print that it is... Also, probably very old hat on the list, anyubody been over charged by columbia? I've ordered 3 shipments of stuff, which took a long time (expected), and then they never billed me. So I called them up, said, HEY, bill me, and WOW, $20 more than quoted on the phone. Maybe the fact that they biled me in canadian dollars (desopite quoting prices in U.S. $) has something to do with it. Anyway, I *WANT* IVINIA!!! Anybody got a spare copy, seen one in a store near them, or know of any *other* way I might get hold of a copy? The map isn't important I have the pilots almanac. Write me and let me know what you want in exchange (money/favor/exchange wise) -Duncan Blake dblake@hamp.hampshire.edu From: phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu (Paul Lehman) Subject: Re: ML's for PC's and NPC's >Has anyone out there thought more about dev. roll assignment to NPCs. As I >see it, there are two aspects. 1) Ambition and 2) diversity vs. speciality. >How good the blacksmith becomes at smithing, depends on how many dev. rolls he >gets, as well as how many of those he spends on the particular skill. People >are more or less lazy, but also more or less interrested in specializing or >learning a little about many things. These factors will naturally have a very >important effect on ML. I suppose a bored blacksmith, who is uninterrested in >his profession doesn't deserve many dev. rolls on metalcraft per year... The >same goes for a blacksmith who spends all the time he can writing poetry. As >far as I have experienced reality, ambition and will is often at least as >important as talent. (I guess this is really different for different skills >though...) I absolutely agree and toyed with the idea of adding motivation as a 3d6 kind of characteristic, but did not to because I did not want to subject charcters (NPCs only I imagine) to numerical description of their personality, and I figured that naturally occuring variability would make some NPCs have high MLs and some low. Those with low SBs and high MLs were overachievers with appropriate personalities whereas high SB and low ML NPCs formed the slackers. I have come to the conclusion that fewer independent variables are better for character generation. Let the dice (or randomizing function) roll where they may and then accept the oddball results that will inevitably occur as a challenge to your ability as GM to explain them in a "believable" manner. I've found this prevents me from making cookie-cutter NPCs. And besides, someone probably once said, "fact is stranger than fiction." As much as I want them to be internally consistent, they are fantasy worlds after all. ---------- phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu 2 + 2 = 5 for sufficiently large values of 2. From: phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu (Paul Lehman) Subject: Re: ML's for PC's and NPC's > First, I've seen this handled by some GMs saying flat out that NPCs don't >get skill development rolls, or NPCs can't increase their MLs through study. This is one solution, although I really would like to aim for a single, consistent system. The same rule should apply to NPCs and PCs. We all know that PCs tend to be the most motivated, skill-maximizing characters in most campaigns, but (depending on the kind of world one wants) NPCs should run the gamut from apathetic dullards to PC-like movers and shakers (e.g. Council of Eleven). Ever since I added up the acrages in a hex and compared that to the area I calculated, I have been impressed by Harn's internal consistency. Perhaps it's a positivistic mindset, but I like single, universal rules. Parsimony is good and unexplained variance bad. Thus, my perspective is that of one trying to make the whole (meta)system "work" rather than trying to keep the narrative dialogue of an active campaign going. >> I suggest that the system be modified so that it takes a week of training >> and a month of (real, challenging) work to get a DR while leaving the DR >> rules for combat, spells, and other stressful situations as they are. This >> way, after about a 50 month apprenticeship, the new journeyman will have a >> realistic ML and it will take the better part of a long, productive >> lifetime full of challenging and difficult work to max out ML (this is >> particularly true of the more mentally demanding skills and even of skills >> such as jewelcraft). Younger characters would still have relatively high >> MLs, just not stratospherically high. > > My problem with doing something like this is that characters will be >forced to become rather one dimensional, and it almost goes back to a class >system. Let's say I have a character who is typified as a fighter. Say he >chooses to learn lockcraft. If it would take 50 (or even 25) months of >training/work before he became reasonably proficient, forget it. Well, it seems to me that learning all about all different kinds of locks and being able to make (and pick) them would require considerable time. If it's one particular lock (or type) or some such simplification for a specific mission, then it seems quite reasonable to allow a (big) bonus for that specific situation. However, I do kinda like the fact that just opened skills increase quite rapidly but often result in failure. Sounds an awefully lot like reality to me: right now I know just enough UNIX to be dangerous, but hardly enough to do anything productive. Thus, were I rolling against my UNIX ML there'd be a lot of CFs. This, of course, is why we (and NPCs/Pcs) should spend time learning from someone else and working our way into tougher situations. Thus, in role playing I make liberal use of (big) bonuses to ML for easy situations and minuses for the tough ones (combat has this built in since your opponent is fighting back). >You would >effectively do away with characters who might have a wide range of skills >open at usable levels. (Usable being in the neighborhood of 30-50%). To >make it virtually impossible for a character with a natural lifespan of 50 >years (or whatever) to become good with a variety of skills doesn't seem right. >You can argue that if he uses the skill in "stressful" situations, such as >within a dungeon, or whatever, he'll learn faster. However, there are >situations when characters may want or need a skill, but will use it seldomly. >The physician skill is an example. If the party contains a player with a >high physician skill, they will probably be doing all of the bandaging. >You don't trust that function to people with SB1. Naturally, we all want the highest physician MLs we can get, but "needing" or "wanting" a high ML just does not make it so. It almost sounds as if you want to correct play balance by increasing PC MLs (please correct me if I misunderstood). I also never meant to imply that characters of all kinds could not simultaneously improve several different skills. Combat should improve (at least) one weapon and shield and initiative while each "stressful" use should allow a DR, etc. I purposefully avoided talking about what criteria to use for awarding DRs since that is a matter for GM discretion (and the amount of violence/stress in each campaign), but I did want to make a point about how many DRs (no matter how aquired/awarded) it took on average to reach a certain ML and the fact that the rules as written did not jibe with the MLs published for artisan types. > My experience with Harn is that it is extremely rare when EML is close >to the ML. When you add in encumberance, fatigue, and injuries, having a >-20% penalty is typical. I think that in general NPCs do not suffer from >penalties to the same degree that PCs do, and as a result, the PCs MLs need >to be higher to compensate. It isn't too often that the group of bandits you >just encountered is still injured from a previous fight (at least with our GM). Well, then the NPCs should play by the same rules as the PCs rather than constantly trying to adjust the rules like we were the NFL Competition Committee :-). [Reference to American sports culture explained on request.] > A suggestion for correcting this problem is to tackle it from a different >angle. Keep the skill development roll mechanism unchanged. However put in >other upper limits on the NPCs MLs based on their affinity for the skill. >For example, I took piano for a couple years, and was awful. Let's say I have >an SB of 3. A friend of mine is a professional musician, with an SB of 18. >Under the current set of rules, it is just as difficult for him to go from ML >19 to 118 as it is for me to go from ML 4 to 103. I know personally that if I >ever hit an ML of 50%, I'd be doing good. Maybe the thing to do is to allow >NPCs a cap of SB * 7 in their skills. An average NPC (SB 11) would max out >as a nearly average journeyman (77%). An NPC with an affinity to the skill >(SB 13) would max out at the master stage (91%). I like this idea a lot, although I would apply it to all characters. It has always bothered me that even low SBs can achieve really high MLs. Coupled with automatic failure/success this creates difficulties resolving things like Olympic-style sports contests or chess matches or dueling banjos/lyres. The only change I might make would be to say that max ML=some constant + a lower multiple of SB, say 50 + 4*SB for example. I'm eager to hear what other people think of this idea! >> BTW#2 (and slightly off topic): I am toying with recording separate >> "theoretical knowledge" MLs for skills that decline with age or SB decrease >> for whatever reason. Whereas the regular ML would decline, theoretical ML >> would not drop except through disuse (and perhaps a bit slower then) and >> mental decline. It might also be useful either alone or in combination with >> Rhetoric/Oratory or Intrigue to evaluate how well a business or franchise >> is run (the normal ML(s) would be used to determine the quality of the >> goods and services actually produced). > > I have thought about this a little bit, and am generally against it >when it was all said and done. The biggest reason for me against it is >that it could become too much bookkeeping. Another issue is how long do >you have to go before the drop occurs? In the campaign I play in, >occasionally a mage might decide they'd like to spend 6 months or a year >doing spell research. In that case, all of the other characters also choose >something to occupy themselves for that time. If my fighter were to lose >some of his fighting abilities because he was functioning as an innkeeper >or weaponcrafter, I'd be upset. Another problem is that you'd have to record >when you last used each skill to determine if the knowledge had become stale. I agree that theoretical MLs are a lot of extra paperwork for little gain. Still, "use it or lose it" does seem to be the way things work. Perhaps setting some standard time to check for skill usage in the most recent interval would work (e.g. on each new moon/week). It also seem to be correct to allow rapid recovery of ML gained the hard way after a layoff. Sort of like getting back into playing shape in training camp or reviewing early semester material before finals. In addition, maybe there should be some mechanism for allowing skills to stay at their current ML: a little practice keeps you where you are without allowing DRs. On the other hand, I can also accept the arguement that you either grow/develope or stagnate (make the DR or fail it), eventually losing "it" with inactivity (ML loss through disuse). I do, however, still like the Rhetoric, Oratory, or Intriuge playing a part in determining the income derived from artisanal/economic skills. Anybody have something to say about this? > To end on a positive note, I found your numerical results very >interesting, and they sparked some ideas in my head. I enjoy seeing these >kinds of thought provoking discussions on the list. Thanks for the kind words. My main goal was to relate what I had been thinking and get some feedback, good or bad, that would sharpen our individual and collective Harn worlds. In this, at least, I think I have succeeded. ---------- phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu 2 + 2 = 5 for sufficiently large values of 2. From: phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu (Paul Lehman) Subject: chivalry bibl The following is a bibliography prepared by the National Military Institute (related to the War College, but I am fuzzy on the details so don't quote me on either name). Funcken, Liliane. The Age of Chivalry. 3 vols. Englewood Cliffs, NJ: Prentice-Hall, 1983. U810F84. James, George P. The History of Chivalry. NY: Fowle, 1900. 342 p. D158J322. Swettenham, John A. The Evening of Chivalry. Ottawa: Natl Museums of Canada, 1972. 47 p. U37S8. Vale, Malcolm G. War and Chivalry: Warfare and Aristrocratic Culture in England, France, and Burgundy at the End of the Middle Ages. Athens, GA: UP of GA, 1981. 206 p. U43G7V34. ---------- phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu 2 + 2 = 5 for sufficiently large values of 2. From: lrg@cherry.cray.com (Lee Gordon) Subject: Re: ML's for PC's and NPC's The following is some email between Paul and myself about the DR post that I thought was appropriate to share with others. > > From: phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu (Paul Lehman) > > > > I just fired off a reply to your comments on my DR post, and realized > > afterwards that they could have been rather too harshly. Chalk it up to > > doing that sort of thing for a living in academia. No offense was intended > > and I do appreciate the time and effort you took to respond. > > I haven't read your response, as they haven't been posted to the list > yet, but after re-reading my initial comments, I think I can guess their > nature. I didn't mean to be antagonistic, but some things I wrote could > appear that way. I hoped to merely present another point of view, and to > offer a band-aide approach to the problems with MLs. I hadn't thought about > my suggestion at all: the idea popped into my head when I was typing. > > To give you an idea of where I was coming from, I have been in constant > discussions with my gaming group over playability vs. realism. For instance, > we have three separate skills for acrobatics, two for physician, a search > skill (actively seeking) which is separate from awareness (passively > noticing), a catch skill to go along with throw, etc. While all of this > does make it more realistic, you have so many skills that you never become > good at any one of them. Can you imagine what it is like when you declare > you plan on jumping across a fissure, and you are asked if you wish to use > your long jump skill or standing broad jump skill? (we aren't *that* bad, > yet!). If you focus on one of them, inevitably you'll encounter a situation > where you can't use it (not enough room to get a running start for long jump), > and with your SB1 broad jump, you proceed to plummet into the chasm. > > With that in mind, whenever I see something that makes it more difficult > to gain rolls to increase ML, I just cringe. Also, when you see what sort > of situation I'm in, you can also see why I'd be opposed to losing ML when > a skill goes unused. I have characters with 100 or so skills (counting > spells, weapons, and automatics), and there would be no way I could keep up > with all of them. > > Anyway, thanks for your warning note about your post. I'll take whatever > it is with a grain of salt. > > -Lee > > P.S. Would you mind if I post this to the Harn mailing list? After looking > through it again, it sort of puts my original post in perspective. He didn't mind. -Lee Lee Gordon ATT: 1-612-683-5484 Cray Research, Inc. Fax: 1-612-683-5599 655F Lone Oak Drive Email: lrg@cray.com or Eagan, MN 55121 uunet!cray!lrg From: phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu (Paul Lehman) Subject: Re: feedback > Also, probably very old hat on the list, anyubody been over charged by >columbia? I've ordered 3 shipments of stuff, which took a long time (expected), >and then they never billed me. So I called them up, said, HEY, bill me, and >WOW, $20 more than quoted on the phone. Maybe the fact that they biled me >in canadian dollars (desopite quoting prices in U.S. $) has something to do >with it. I am never quite sure how they determine when and what to charge me as an Autoship customer. I get no bill or invoice and the amount of money whoever answers the phone all the time (Tom) does not seem to jibe with what I've been calculating. As I understand it, their policy is that Canadian customers pay the posted prices in Canadian dollars, which is a small discount and keeps things simple for all concerned. This is somewhat complicated, however, by the fact that they must charge _ALL_ VISA/Mastercard orders in Canadian dollars. It seems simple to me, but apparantly not to Columbia... ;-) Maybe the official representative of Columbia wants to tackle this one.... > Anyway, I *WANT* IVINIA!!! Anybody got a spare copy, seen one in a >store near them, or know of any *other* way I might get hold of a copy? >The map isn't important I have the pilots almanac. >Write me and let me know what you want in exchange (money/favor/exchange wise) You'll need a court order and more than a handful of ATF agents to pry my copies away. You might see if Columbia has some of those damaged modules left. I ordered a few and the ones I got were as advertised: covers slightly to moderately damaged, but interior is fine condition. Half price too, I think. Good Luck (you'll need it!) ---------- phlehman@bongo.cc.utexas.edu A bartender is just a pharmacist with a limited inventory.